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Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday June 21, 2018 @06:26AM (#17363679)
>> Generally speaking, logical modelling is too limited for good concept representations

In principle, First Order Logic and equivalent languages can represent anything that can be represented in natural language. The problem is that in practice it is very hard to transfer into a logic language all the knowledge you might need for a useful system.

In fact, this was one motivation for at least one branch of machine learning- the work from Ryszard Michalski, Claude Sammut, Ranan Banerji, Steven Vere, Brian Cohen and later rule-learners like Quinlan's decision tree learners and of course all the later work in Inductive Logic Programming by Plotkin, Shapiro, Muggleton etc. These are all rule-learning systems, that can avoid the knowledge acquisition bottleneck that probably did in for purely rule-based expert systems in the '90s (i.e. getting experts to transfer their knowledge into rules).

I rather agree that further progress in AI will require a, let's say, synchretistic approach- like I say in another comment, the obvious thing for me is to use deep learning for perception, logic for inference and probabilistic modelling to deal with the noisy world. There are some people working in that sort of direction, with different amounts of emphasis on each of the three approaches. For instance, Josh Tenenbaum at MIT, Evans and Grefenstette at DeepMind, Luc De Raedt at KU Leuven, Kristian Kersting at Dortmund, Lise Getoor also at MIT, Pedro Domingos at Washington, and many others.

Apologies for all the name-dropping without links. Let me know and I can provide them if required.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by bglazer on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:13AM (#17365276)
I agree totally that a "non-pure" deep learning approach is going to be necessary in pushing the field forward. World shattering results from new deep architectures like AlexNet are becoming more and more rare and improvements are becoming incremental. Language models, for example, showed some impressive results in recent years, but we're still a long long way from generating realistic and useful text. I'm not sure if throwing more data at larger architectures will get us there. Maybe, maybe not.

The work by Tenenbaum at MIT is a particularly interesting mix of psychology, computational statistics, and neuroscience. It really challenges the commonly repeated notion that neural networks are completely unrelated to actual brains.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by paganel on Thursday June 21, 2018 @08:29AM (#17364462)
> In principle, First Order Logic and equivalent languages can represent anything that can be represented in natural language.

Is there any proof about an existing non-leaky abstraction between natural language and First Order Logic (or logic in general)? Afaik there is none, but I might me wrong. For example (one amongst thousands): “I don’t like you” can actually mean (and it often does) the exact opposite, and the same can be said of a simple statement like “I am ok” which also can mean the exact opposite. Natural language is a very hard problem.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by narag on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:19AM (#17365339)
Does it matter, though? Understanding sarcasm or other forms of language twisting seems like only important for a very advanced and specific set of applications. There's another post in the front page about the death of a gorilla that was able to do signs language. I'm sure nobody cared if he could catch jokes.
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:14AM (#17365290)
Well, going by formal language theory, FOL is equivalent to a universal Turing machine, which is probably also the full expressive power of human language. Therefore, everything that can be said in human language should in principle be possible to say in FOL. I don't think this is controversial.

Notice again that I don't think this is feasible in practice. At least not with hand-crafted FOL expressions and certainly not with existing technology.

I'm not sure what "non-leaky abstraction" means. Would formal language theory fit the bill?

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by sgt101 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @11:54AM (#17366263)
Yeah but humans don't have a single consistent logical model for all reasoning - i believe that all my models can be in fol, but i don't believe that they can be unified in fol
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by polkapolka on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:26PM (#17367957)
Dennett aims to solve this using heterophenemenology:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterophenomenology

In this framework, utterances can be studied without taking their truth value at face value.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by sgt101 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @03:40PM (#17368596)
Very interesting, I'll have to think a lot about that.
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday June 21, 2018 @05:47PM (#17369573)
Oh, I'm not saying anything about how humans think, or model the world. FOL is a formal language. It can express the same things that natural language can express and you can do reasoning in it (actually- let's say "inference" because reasoning is a bit of a loaded term), but I make no claim that it's how humans really think.

I mean, I don't believe that is true any more that I believe calculus, or linear algebra are the way we think. Those are just formal systems that we can use to get various results about the world- but is that how we really think inside our heads? I kind of doubt it.

I'm just talking about the expressive power of first-order predicate calculus here, not about whether it's a good model for human intelligence.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by Eridrus on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:44AM (#17371382)
One problem with first order logic is that it is too powerful.

There is a direct trade-off between the expressiveness of your representation and your ability to reason about it.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by jryanwelsh on Monday July 02, 2018 @05:51PM (#17445629)
I'm going to assume you mean the computational complexity of working with such an expressive representation. If so, then that is correct. historically, working such an expressive representation blows out computationally. But, we've resolved that issue with our graph engine. that is, its been shown that algorithms take time proportional to N-cubed where N is the number of graphs in the knowledge base. with our graph engine, we encode graph structures and ontology in a Cognitive Signature, and we can find closely matching signatures in log(N) time. the log-time algorithms scale to the size of the web.
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday June 21, 2018 @08:16AM (#17364383)
I suspect you may have a hard time representing all the implications, subtexts, and allusions in a play by Shakespeare with First Order Logic.

It seems more likely that First Order Logic can be represented by a subset of natural language.

Otherwise, I agree. I don't understand why everyone has been concentrating so hard on probabilistic ML when there are many applications where inductive inference is more efficient and powerful.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by garmaine on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:32AM (#17371875)
That’s not obvious. Do you have any reason for thinking so?
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by goatlover on Thursday June 21, 2018 @09:12AM (#17364730)
> In principle, First Order Logic and equivalent languages can represent anything that can be represented in natural language.

I doubt this is the case since natural language makes a lot of use of metaphors, and our concepts are probably mostly based on the types of bodies we have and how we interact with the world. See embodied cognition and writings of Lakoff and Mark Johnson.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by garmaine on Thursday June 21, 2018 @11:35AM (#17366098)
Look into the field of computational semantics. There is absolutely nothing in your comment which cannot be represented in existing logics. Metaphors and such are no problem.

There is ambiguity in natural languages so the determination of underlying meaning is at best probabilistic, but we have ways of handling that too.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by randcraw on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:22AM (#17371557)
Lexical and computational semantics may be superior to FOL, (for machine translation, at least) but they've been around now for a very long time without showing much promise toward thawing past AI Winters. I've not heard anyone propose their adoption as the missing next step toward modeling general knowledge across all AI problem spaces.

In fact, populating a LS/CS knowledgebase with requisite facts was a game stopper when they were first invented and still pose challenges of scale that remain unsolved decades later. If it accomplished anything, Cyc proved that manual curation alone of a rich database of propositions is depressingly infeasible. So how does one automatically curate a general fact KB, no matter what semantic model the facts take? I don't think expressiveness of the propositional representation will ever decide that question.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by garmaine on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:31AM (#17371870)
I’m not sure what you are saying. Computational semantics parses sentences to possible interpretations in first order, or higher order logics. It is not some sort of alternative to FOL. And it is still a rapidly developing field.
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by randcraw on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:59AM (#17371982)
I'm trying to suggest (perhaps badly) that formal models of logic modeling like LS / CS have an innate achilles heel (from what I've seen): either A) the knowledgebase is precise but tiny, and will remain so because it had to be meticulously hand crafted to comply with a formal semantic model, or B) the KB is representationally sloppy but big and scaleable, because it was populated automatically and informally (probabilistically), thereby forever limiting its amenability to precise models of reasoning. To wit, you may have your cake, but the morsel is so tiny you'll starve.

I think this tradeoff in quality vs quantity has been central to the inability of most Good Old Fashioned AI (GOFAI) formal symbolic methods to 1) scale up beyond toy academic clean-room problems (from the admittedly little I've seen of commercial LS/CS), as well as 2) support the flexibility and imprecision needed to deal with a messy ill-defined very big world with a seemingly unknowable number of unknowns.

It may be that this venerable yin v yang of knowledge modeling will forever bedevil AI. I don't have the sense that any techniques in the past 30 years have really made headway in breaking this log jam. Deep nets have just tilted the playing field in its favor, so long as we're willing to ignore fussy details like dependence, FOL, and causality.

Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by garmaine on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:01PM (#17376473)
That describes the weaknesses of existing academic attempts not the theory in any way. I could say the same things of machine learning actually.
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by sgt101 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @10:06AM (#17365201)
In principle, but not consistently over various cases. Wikipedia shows some examples where it breaks down
Re:Is There a Smarter Path to Artificial Intelligence? Some ... by rwnspace on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:47AM (#17374327)
>In principle, First Order Logic and equivalent languages can represent anything that can be represented in natural language

If you include a semantics for supervaluationism (Sorites paradox, Keefe on vagueness)!

Thinking of it, I'd love to train a NN against human responses to '"is this a heap, yes/no?" +/-1 grain, repeat'.