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Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by Reedx on Friday June 15, 2018 @12:53PM (#17321305)
At what point do we collectively decide, you know what, this is ridiculous. Why are we funneling most of our money to landlords?

You'd think VCs would push back on this too, because that's where their money is going.

VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by dmix on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:06PM (#17321432)
> Why are we funneling most of our money to landlords?

Government policy:

https://www.amazon.com/Zoned-Out-Regulation-Transportation-M...

> Zoned Out forcefully argues that the debate about transportation and land-use planning in the United States has been distorted by a myth. The myth that urban sprawl is the result of a free market. According to this myth, low-density, auto-dependent development dominates U.S. metropolitan areas because that is what Americans prefer. Jonathan Levine confronts the free market myth by pointing out that land development is already one of the most regulated sectors of the U.S. economy. Noting that local governments use their regulatory powers to lower densities, segregate different types of land uses, and mandate large roadways and parking lots, he argues that the design template for urban sprawl is written into the land-use regulations of thousands of municipalities nationwide.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by asveikau on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:37PM (#17322841)
> According to this myth, low-density, auto-dependent development dominates U.S. metropolitan areas because that is what Americans prefer.

Unfortunately I have to agree with the "myth": outside of urban bubbles like the one I live in, yes, Americans do prefer that. It is the cultural norm and everybody's expectation. To a lot of people you may as well be a Martian to defy it.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by dmix on Saturday June 16, 2018 @02:20AM (#17326186)
> it is the cultural norm and everybody's expectation. To a lot of people you may as well be a Martian to defy it.

Incentives play a major role in defining such a culture. It doesn't have to be a positive seemingly self-selected incentive to want to live in the suburbs, but negative ones play a major role as well, such as the insanely high costs to own property... due to severe limitations on developing high density multistory buildings in cities, which is why modern cities are exclusively full of either a mega skyscrapers or a single family homes. Or the ease of an automobile-first lifestyle - which is almost always a reaction to poorly developed mixed density urban areas, causing urban sprawl, not a cause of it.

Just because a lot of people have responded to opting the easiest options given to them doesn't mean the easiest option was the result of market/personal choices. Rather it was ultimately a result of the intention, or more often unintentional, side effects of government policy, not a prolonged series of personal choice.

This is hardly limited to just urban sprawl and land development. Thomas Sowell has a brilliant book on how this same cycle has been applied across US culture/politics/economics for decades after WW2 - well beyond just real estate - to nearly every major sector which influences modern US lives: https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Poverty-Politics-Thomas-Sowell...

If one considers government economic and social policy by their results, not simply their good intentions, this pattern can be seen in countless places. Yet the popular reaction by the media and political parties is so often to blame personal choice and 'unrestrained' markets for the output.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @12:58PM (#17321357)
If I had to guess somewhere in the next ten years when the absurd number of boomers who have been putting their retirement savings into second and third homes all try to cash out at the same time, flood the market, and find out that it was all just Monopoly money.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by dv_dt on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:14PM (#17321499)
Within the next 2-3 years, there is likely to be another recession which will, if patterns follow, will be longer than the previous one. It would be bad news for a lot of boomers getting out of the market for retirement.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by rubicon33 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:51PM (#17322441)
As someone who is on the precipice of purchasing a new home, this is my top concern and reason for potentially continuing to rent.

So naturally I am attuned to comments like this, and articles elsewhere, which talk about this subject.

Do you have any further insight into why you think there will be a recession in the next 2-3 years? Other than "it's a cycle and we're lined up for another one" ... Are there other market conditions that are making that more and more of a reality?

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimbofisher1 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:57PM (#17322501)
Rates of indebtedness, quality of debt(AAA, BBB ratings etc), stock market overvaluation, real estate overvaluation. Take your pick, conditions are very similar to 2007. Whether anything actually happens is the trillion dollar question.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by rubicon33 on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:02PM (#17322549)
Appreciated. That gives me some things to look into. Cheers
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimbofisher1 on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:47PM (#17322923)
https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc180604/

This was recently posted on HN and gives a good overview of indicators to look at though it's pretty blatantly alarmist.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by rubicon33 on Friday June 15, 2018 @04:37PM (#17323338)
Reading through this now. There's a lot here and I have to admit, much of it is out of my wheelhouse. But I can get the gist of what's being said. I appreciate the link.

Makes me definitely consider putting this housing search on the back burner. In my area we've seen massive price increases in just the last 3 years. I was on a tour of a home yesterday and the agent told me that the previous home tour was with a bay area investor who had cash on hand for the home.

Hard to compete with that. And maybe it's just the wrong time to be competing at all.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimbofisher1 on Friday June 15, 2018 @04:51PM (#17323449)
I am not an investment advisor But you can approximate the returns you would get from real estate appreciation by carefully investing what you would spend on a home (down payment, taxes, mortgage etc.). Though if theres a major downturn that could also be risky.

Buy gold?

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by dv_dt on Friday June 15, 2018 @05:47PM (#17323894)
There are many indicators that one could look at, "inverted yield curve" is one, but given it's popularity if it actually flips, it might actually trigger the recession in the behaviour that follows, so you end up needing to predict the predictor. And many indicators can get into "lucky socks" cargo cult territory quickly because they happen to match up events/stats with recessionary time periods.

If you need a general introduction, Dalio provides a nice starter for thinking about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0

A interesting proposed measure here based upon fundamentals IMHO to me is consumption investment ratio: http://necsi.edu/research/economics/econuniversal

All I can really say is be very sceptical of anyone who says they know for sure - I'm going mostly off my reading of cycle behaviors with some hand wavy harder measures (but economics is a terrible field and even the rigorously defined measures in the end have poor real-world predictive accuracy.)

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by ScottBurson on Friday June 15, 2018 @04:11PM (#17323139)
Well, I saw this the other day: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/beware-the-m...

I can't speak to its accuracy, but it's certainly a sobering read.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by malvosenior on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:09PM (#17321460)
The rent they are earning on those properties is definitely real money.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:15PM (#17321513)
And most of them I've seen are frittering that money away on bullshit, content in the idea that the gravy train will keep continuing ad infinitum.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by pixl97 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:04PM (#17322020)
Not necessarily.

I get a loan for a rent house, I'll be paying it for 30 years.

I take your rent check, pay the loan fee, and invest the rest.

The market crashed. I lose my investment. My renters lose their job. No one can afford rent that matches the minimum loan payment.

Where is the real money again?

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by johnmaguire2013 on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:13PM (#17322656)
That's a strawman argument. In any case, if you keep your money in the market, you'll almost certainly see it again.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by enervate on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:09PM (#17321462)
are you suggesting i might get to buy a house or i might not because i'll lose my job?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:16PM (#17321519)
I don't follow.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by enervate on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:40PM (#17321774)
When all the boomers sell, the sudden influx of houses on the market is will lower prices so that people like me (I'm in my early 30's) won't have to pay a million dollars for a 2 bedroom condo. On the other hand would falling housing prices cause another recession (I'm no economist) cause me or other people like me to lose their jobs and not be able to afford a house anyway?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:53PM (#17321928)
Yeah, that's the knife edge I feel like I'm on right now too.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by gnarcoregrizz on Friday June 15, 2018 @12:58PM (#17321355)
VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord (VC)
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by Gargoyle on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:10PM (#17321466)
That's my favorite conspiracy theory. That VCs own the property and are fine with channeling their fund's money (which isn't all or even mostly theirs) into rent.

Disclaimer- I don't really believe it's that simple.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:18PM (#17321538)
I've seen some of that in Boulder at least. The VCs here will "strongly recommend" that you rent their office space.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimbofisher1 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:59PM (#17322515)
Why is this a conspiracy theory? VCs are very wealthy and at least in theory financially savvy so they probably have a diversified portfolio of investments, some of which is definitely real estate. Seems obvious to me.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by gnarcoregrizz on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:32PM (#17321703)
Haha, no, it's definitely not that simple, but it is a fun conspiracy theory. It's really to highlight the "wealth funnels up" effect which happens in a very broad and indirect way
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by ekianjo on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:07PM (#17321443)
The circle of life.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by erjjones on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:01PM (#17321388)
> At what point do we collectively decide, you know what, this is ridiculous.

I would say things are at that point. So move to a different city. Success != The Valley

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by stevehawk on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:57PM (#17321973)
It's all anecdotal but recruiters and lot of developers seem to frown on me for not being interested in moving to SV. I'd rather be unemployed in the midwest (which i am) than employed in the SV. Why give up my 1.5 acres and 4500sq ft home for the hell i see advertised on here so often.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by peterwwillis on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:25PM (#17321619)
I would say we need to redefine the idea of a city and how we live in them.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimrandomh on Friday June 15, 2018 @12:59PM (#17321368)
We've already collectively decided that. The problem is that a significant fraction of people have been misled about which policies will fix it. The problem is that local governments are controlled by the landlords, and they use zoning restrictions to limit supply and keep prices up. The fix is to transfer that power to the state government, which will allow enough housing to be built.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by abalone on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:18PM (#17321546)
This is overly dismissive of the concerns of poor and working class renters. A big problem in this debate is that privileged, largely white people who want more affordable market rate housing claim to be speaking on behalf of poorer people and claim that the same set of policies and approaches will work for everyone. They dismiss them as “misled” instead of listening carefully to their expressed needs for much more subsidized housing construction and controls on gentrification of their communities. Those are things that local governments can affect, so generally disempowering them is a concern to these communities.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by pofilat on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:02PM (#17321402)
Municipalities aren't like states of the Union. Municipalities have no power except that which is granted to them by the state. There is nothing legally stopping any state government from passing a law tomorrow to change how municipalities are run.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:07PM (#17321441)
Except landlords have tons of political capital to expend, most effectively at the state government level.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by triviatise on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:47PM (#17322921)
this is 100% not true. Local governments are controlled by old people who are fighting change. Landlords would love to increase the density of properties to make more money from a single property.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by xienze on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:27PM (#17321641)
> At what point do we collectively decide, you know what, this is ridiculous.

When tech workers get over their “I simply MUST live in the Bay Area, ugh, anywhere else is simply unliveable” mindset that in turn drives companies to concentrate in said area.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by trovi on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:15PM (#17322117)
Isn't it the other way around though?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by xienze on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:29PM (#17322252)
Not really. Frequently cited by young workers are the desire/"need" to be in a big, walkable city, diverse, lots of food options, etc. The concentration of companies seems to be merely a bonus.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimbofisher1 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:55PM (#17322483)
You are probably missing the fact that many VCs are likely heavily invested in Real Estate and this chain simply loops back to them, what incentive would they have for changing the status quo?

VC -> Startup -> Employee -> VC/Landlord

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by zerostar07 on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:03PM (#17321414)
To what extent do VCs and landlords overlap?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by beat on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:18PM (#17321535)
They don't, probably. Totally different business models. The conspiracy theory is idiotic. VCs aren't in business to make the relatively flat world of rent. They're looking for that 100x return.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:19PM (#17321556)
Or, you know, just like the whole point of being a VC is diversifying so much that you catch the one 100x return, they've also diversified their capital also into more stable returns as well so they're not so feast or famine.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by beat on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:21PM (#17321576)
Yes, diversifying to catch the 100x, but that's still investing in startups. Doing a corrupt rent pass-through with general partners' money will never generate a 100x.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:26PM (#17321636)
I mean, I've literally seen it. If you have to pay rent for office space anyway, it might as well go back to you. And I'm sure there'd be internal issues at the fund if someone was doing this and charging above market rates, but otherwise, what's the harm?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by chipotle_coyote on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:26PM (#17322223)
What you're describing sounds much more like VCs with offices subletting that space to startups they're funding until the startups grow big enough to get their own space than the more conspiratorial "VCs own the property management companies your startup is leasing from."

In any case, what you're talking about is renting office space -- the linked article is reporting on renting residential space. There's no evidence I can find to suggest that Silicon Valley style VC funding is secretly behind Essex Property Trust, AvalonBay Communities, or other residential REITs.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by monocasa on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:39PM (#17322864)
No, they're not subletting. They own these buildings, and don't use them for their regular VC job.

And they also own residential rental property out here too.

I can't speak to the sv, but this isn't an unsubstantiated meme in Boulder.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by jimbofisher1 on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:02PM (#17322545)
I think you are missing the point, VCs, the corporate entities DJF, Sequoia etc are not landlords. But their millionaire/billioniare founders and partners almost certainly are.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by arthurjj on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:24PM (#17321603)
Part of it's that these cities make it hard to build more housing, sometimes illegally. I give money to CARLA[1] which enforces the housing laws in California.

1. https://carlaef.org/donate/

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by avn2109 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:05PM (#17322028)
>> "VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord."

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the VC is the landlord. They're not stupid, and this setup is intentional.

It's a company town. History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes.

Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by johnmaguire2013 on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:14PM (#17322662)
Do you have any sources to back that up?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by anonymous5133 on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:15PM (#17322122)
It is slowly starting to change as more tech companies arent even located in the bay area anymore. Companies flocked to the bay area for the employee skills but now more of the talent can be found in other cities as well.
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by knuththetruth on Friday June 15, 2018 @12:54PM (#17321311)
You think VCs don’t have Bay Area real estate investments in their personal portfolios?
Re:Nation’s top three most expensive places for renters: all... by crimsonalucard on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:14PM (#17321501)
It's recursive. Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> Landlord -> business -> VC -> Startup -> Employee -> ...