News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by jmull on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:09PM (#17307428)
The problem is, how do you build a back door that can only be used by people with valid (and just) warrants?

You really can’t go down your line of argument without answering thar

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by tzs on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @08:34PM (#17308273)
> The problem is, how do you build a back door that can only be used by people with valid (and just) warrants?

That's an interesting technical problem. A lot of people dismiss it as impossible out of hand, but they are underestimating what you can do with modern cryptography.

You make it a distributed back door that requires several independent third parties to cooperate to use it.

You choose the third parties so that no particular warrant seeker will be able to get enough power or influence over enough of the third parties to force them to enable the back door unless they think the use is valid and just. (You can actually design it so that the warrant seeker does not know who the third parties are).

Some aspects of this may be too complicated to be practical, but it is not impossible.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by olliej on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @09:13PM (#17308465)
No, having worked on crypto I feel confident saying that the smart people, especially those who do understand crypto, know, and state, that it cannot be done.

All solution fundamentally boil down to someone has the keys required to decrypt all your content. This is ignoring the other technical costs (now your service has to record all ephemeral keys as well).

It doesn’t matter /who/ has that decryption key, the requirement is that access to the key is guarded only by policy.

You also resort to “with a warrant” but a NSL is effectively a warrant, and I’m fairly sure the DPRC has “warrants”. Who gets to request those keys? The position of the us government is that they have the right to access data from people in other countries, so can they provide a warrant to access that data? Can Germany ask for the data for someone in the US? What if someone travelled through another country - can that country now access those keys?

Note these all questions regarding /legitimate/ access, I’m completely ignoring police officers looking up people they stopped and stealing nudes, of people stealing the information and using that information to steal money, stalking, etc

I am sick and tired of people who say “modern cryptography is amazing, so it must be able to fulfill my unicorn dreams”. Either stop claiming nonsense or provide a prove that it is possible by designing a system that does what you say must be possible.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by tzs on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @10:29PM (#17308790)
Briefly, use a secret sharing protocol to distribute the device key to 500 lawyers around the world from countries other than the country the device holder resides in, with 400 key shares needed to reconstruct the device key. A requester can get the device key if he can convince 400 of the 500 lawyers that his request is legitimate according to whatever the criteria was that the lawyers agreed to when they agreed to become key share holders.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by olliej on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:34PM (#17312897)
Which layers? Do those lawyers have the competence to handle securing such a key? What happens when those keys are compromised? What is a legal order that would be valid? The US already has warrant exclusions for “emergencies”, how careful will these lawyers be when they’re getting thousands of requests a day? What happens when they get an NSL?

What happens when you’re investigating a criminal act sponsored by one of the governments you supposedly trust? What if they compel the lawyers in their countries to not provide the keys?

I generally dislike “what if” but given the problem space you do actually need to explain how your system works, and how it resolves these problems.

Remember there are plenty of countries with terrible human rights records, but they also still have regular crimes happen.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by s73v3r_ on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @11:11PM (#17308963)
Your argument fell apart when you said "secret". What do you do to prevent widespread abuse when the secret gets out?
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by mirimir on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @11:54PM (#17309159)
I'm sure that's a reference to Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme,[0] which is hardly a secret.

0) http://point-at-infinity.org/ssss/

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by davidgay on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @11:37PM (#17309087)
per-device key.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by mcny on Thursday June 14, 2018 @04:42AM (#17310299)
Who holds the per device key? If someone holds all the per device keys (or parts of the per device key) you've painted a bulls eye on their face. In all honesty, I cannot trust the US government with secrets like this because I don't see us being willing to secure it at the same level that we secure our nukes. And dear lord even that level of security likely won't be enough to fend off internal and external threats.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by natch on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:49PM (#17359072)
Lawyers? Gross. You didn't address what you do when the key is leaked, and then worse you propose to give decision power to scummy people. Not to mention that some of your worldwide lawyers will be sharia "lawyers" and such.

Then when people point out the problems, you don't answer. You make a lot of assertions that are flat out wrong.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by fauigerzigerk on Thursday June 14, 2018 @03:15AM (#17309945)
What law would those lawyers apply and who would select them?
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Thursday June 14, 2018 @04:43AM (#17310304)
> It doesn’t matter /who/ has that decryption key

Of course it matters. Apple already has nearly total power to modify their devices, and are clearly acting with caution. American courts are not going to give a warrant so an officer can steal nudes. There is no a priori reason that your phone should require a greater kind of warrant than your home or your bank account, and wanting zero access at all only makes sense if you think law enforcement has negative utility.

Personally I'd do something more like this: Print one code on the inside of each device, so as to make access strictly harder than physical access, store one code internally as per your other mission-critical keys, distribute one key each to choice governments, inside a physical module so as to prevent clumsy storage and reduce the chance of cloning (since singly-owned keys can just be revoked if stolen), perhaps with some protocol so multiple members are needed to agree, if you are particularly paranoid. That way you can only get access if Apple wills (either given a warrant or otherwise coerced), the court wills (either a genuine case or simply corrupt), and you had physical access to the device. Apple could not then backdate court keys, so can only be coerced by China into providing access for future phones exactly as they are already in the position to do, though of course OS updates means they already effectively have a backdoor.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by olliej on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:28PM (#17312837)
Except of course to you need the device passcode to install an update. So no Apple can’t just force an update.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by zzz157 on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:00AM (#17310966)
But... why? I am not a criminal and no one but me should ever be able to access my device.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Thursday June 14, 2018 @11:03AM (#17312235)
Because murderers, kidnappers, and murdered victims also use phones. The article includes commentary from an Indiana State Police task force which claims to have used information from warrants on phones to protect children in some manner.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by olliej on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:26PM (#17312825)
So? Murderers and kidnappers will benefit from being able to access their victims phone - after all the phone was already weakened to support such access.

Also: murderers and kidnappers don’t have to use broken cryptography. So again the only people who are harmed are people who aren’t criminals.

Also the statement from the Indiana police is extremely vague, and doesn’t make any details available about what they were doing.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by zelon88 on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @09:00PM (#17308412)
Knowing how our government works they would just get tired of leaving each other voicemails and put their private keys on a network share or something.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by natch on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @09:21PM (#17308497)
>several independent third parties to cooperate

Your foolishly conceived system does have any way to ensure that the several parties are not corrupt or evil. You would need to solve that problem first. Assuming it is solved does not work.

In the meantime, devices need to be designed to protect the human rights of users.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by lern_too_spel on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @10:40PM (#17308846)
The same way a storage facility can give keys for specific units to people who present valid warrants to search those units.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by sbarker on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @11:31PM (#17309056)
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:12PM (#17307444)
You centralize ownership, the same way it has been done since the dawn of the internet. Even Intel can securely update your microcode.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by delfinom on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:08PM (#17307795)
The problem is the only ones you can really trust in this case are Apple, just like only Intel has the keys for microcode. Give out software to every police department instead and there'll be a hack out in the public the same week.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by bunderbunder on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:29PM (#17307542)
Yep, and private keys are never compromised.

Aside from the many, many known cases where they are: http://legacydirs.umiacs.umd.edu/~tdumitra/papers/CCS-2017.p...

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:35PM (#17307576)
As best as I can tell, if you don't trust OS or microcode updates, you can't trust your phone at all unless you airgap it or somesuch.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by wholinator2 on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:56PM (#17307721)
Very true. Everyone should know their TNO, Trust No One. As far as I can see it's the only way to really operate in the world of computer security that we live in.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by ska on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:21PM (#17307496)
Except, since the dawn of the internet, this has never really worked without issues.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:26PM (#17307526)
I'm willing to bet that Apple can handle a single secure key in low-bandwidth interactions with law enforcement. This is not rocket science; it's not shared, it's not exposed to the web, it's not interacting with complex components. It's just a key.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by CydeWeys on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:51PM (#17307687)
The technical aspects aren't the problem. The political and social aspects are.

What does Apple do if they have this capability and China puts pressure on them to unencrypt some information on Chinese "dissidents"? China has incredible leverage over Apple, seeing as how all their devices are built there. Would Apple dare resist these requests from Chinese national law enforcement agencies?

Better to not have this ability at all, and thus never be put into this precarious situation.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by wallace_f on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:16PM (#17307852)
Interesting that you looked to China foran example of a bad outcome. Ordinary police here in the states already misuse the privileged access they've been given, such as to supposedly private personal details to stalk romantic interests, personal enemies, business competitors, etc.[1]

1-https://apnews.com/699236946e3140659fff8a2362e16f43/ap-acros...

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by lern_too_spel on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @10:46PM (#17308869)
> Better to not have this ability at all, and thus never be put into this precarious situation.

Apple has this ability now, by installing an OS that allows bruteforcing the pin.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by dwaite on Thursday June 14, 2018 @01:58AM (#17309626)
Apple cant do this passively/on demand, as upgrading the OS or Secure Enclave requires the user passcode. Of course the new OS/Secure Enclave firmware could remove this restriction, but generally these sorts of requests are reactionary
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:20PM (#17307872)
> The technical aspects aren't the problem. The political and social aspects are.

With this I agree completely.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by rsyntax on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:44PM (#17308013)
Just to add. Looking at the current political state surrounding the Russian collusion investigation. It's not a stretch that Trump would not use this against his political enemies or "fake new media". And look at what his supporters have done with FBI agents that had an affair with private text messages. Trump isn't the first of his kind nor will s/he be the last.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by natch on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @09:27PM (#17308535)
Why would they ever want to?

Imagine the conversation if Veedrac was running the show at Apple.

Saudi Police: "We need the key to this user's phone because they are suspected of having a video of their own gay sex and we want to prove it and if they are guilty of gay sex, we will give the user 60 lashes and then execute them and their partner by chopping off their heads with a sword."

Veedrac: "Oh, OK, yes here you go, here is a single secure key on a one time basis so you can get the user's video and kill them."

Do you really think this is a great scenario, that Apple wants to actively enable by spending money and effort on their designs to make it happen?

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Thursday June 14, 2018 @04:49AM (#17310324)
Well I don't think I've ever been caricatured as homophobic before, that's one for the books.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by natch on Thursday June 14, 2018 @06:31AM (#17310641)
The comment wasn’t saying that you are homophobic. Just that you were being foolishly naive in advocating a system that would enable evil regimes including, for example, homophobic ones, to more effectively practice some of their most egregious human rights violating behaviors.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:12AM (#17311022)
And did you actually think about how such a risk might be handled, instead of (as I suspect you did) immediately jumping to strawman and slander the other side? It took me roughly 30 seconds to think of an approach that prevents overreach from foreign powers, I strongly suspect Apple can afford spending 5 minutes.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by natch on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:32PM (#17312884)
Foreign powers aren’t the only problem. Leaked keys, domestic powers, small town corrupt sheriffs, corrupt US Presidents, are also problems. You think you have managed in 30 seconds to overturn the thinking of the entire credible security community.

Let’s hear your approach then. Don’t be coy.

Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Thursday June 14, 2018 @05:52PM (#17315744)
I have given a suggestion elsewhere in this thread. This will be my last post here, though.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by natch on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:57AM (#17320192)
The suggestion where others already poked holes in it and pointed out the obvious flaws for you... ok then Veedrac.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by ska on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:40PM (#17307608)
If only it were that simple, and Apple were the only ones to trust. History shows us that even the best intentioned key sharing is vulnerable.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by threeseed on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:35PM (#17307955)
Except that countries like Russia, China et al can demand that Apple hand over those codes. Much better that Apple is not in the business of being the gatekeeper for hundreds of millions of users.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by Veedrac on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:39PM (#17307983)
They can already demand the keys to the kingdom.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by ceejayoz on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:49PM (#17308047)
It's a lot easier to say no if there are no keys to the kingdom.
Re:Apple to Close iPhone Security Hole That Police Use to Cr... by threeseed on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @07:49PM (#17308045)
Exactly.

And having more mechanisms by which they can access user data is not something that ever should be encouraged.