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Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by exmadscientist on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:58PM (#17286132)
Speaking as someone in the industry who's worked on Type C-enabled gadgets, half the bloody problem is that the Type C products offered by the major semiconductor companies are _terrible_.

For sake of a simple example, consider designing a rechargeable flashlight. For whatever reason, you'd like it to be rechargeable over a USB-C port. You also want the flashlight to charge as fast as possible from whatever power source you connect it to, because you know people will need to charge it quickly. To do that, the ideal solution would be a single IC that sits on the USB port and monitors D+/D-, CC1/2, and the rail voltages and sets a few GPIOs to tell your battery charge circuit what is and isn't allowed on this port.

Inexplicably, _that chip doesn't exist_. It does exist for USB 2.0 (that is, BC1.2), available from several vendors, and works perfectly. There are solutions marketed for Type-C... but they don't touch USB 2.0. That means someone who uses a Type-A to Type-C cable with a beefy older Type-A charger doesn't get fast charging. There are some bigger Type-C products that might work, but they're incredibly complex, physically large, expensive, often in BGA packages, and will blow out every line on your budget.

Admittedly it's been about a year since I turned over every stone in the industry searching for my Magical Unicorn Charging IC (like the ones that exist for USB 2.0...), but I do pay attention to new product releases and I haven't seen anyone going in this direction. Probably you could get something customized (at medium volumes) or certainly full custom (at high volumes), but if volumes or margins are low enough to require COTS parts, there really aren't any workable solutions.

I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by chx on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:52PM (#17287263)
There's no innovation in this sector. It needed Apple to kick Ti's sorry ass to get us to Ti 83 even instead of the Ti 82. It says quite a lot every Thunderbolt enclosure uses this chip: there are no other USB PD controllers (USB PD is used to negotiate Alternate Modes).

Another example: you can buy a small and cheap USB C to DisplayPort adapter with power passthrough (< 20 USD). You can buy a (relatively) small and cheap USB C to dual DisplayPort MST hub (<50 USD). You can not buy a USB C to dual DisplayPort MST hub with power passthrough unless it's a full dock, huge in size and expensive (200 USD at least).

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by p1mrx on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:38PM (#17288843)
To anyone as confused as I was: the parent comment refers to the Texas Instruments TPS65982/TPS65983, not the graphing calculators.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by nol13 on Monday June 11, 2018 @10:09PM (#17290197)
"you can buy a small and cheap USB C to DisplayPort adapter with power passthrough (< 20 USD)"

*may destroy motherboard

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by mmagin on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:00PM (#17288543)
Is this because of patents, or is this because nobody wants to do the R&D?
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by chx on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:34PM (#17288801)
The latter. The entire area of vaguely PC peripheral chips died in 2014 when MegaChips took over ST's DP chips.

Consider how much a 10 GbE card still costs -- this is the same speed! Apparently, it's not cheap making chips working with 10-20-40 gigabit/s line speeds but the market demands low cost. USB C wouldn't get far if a plain USB C to DP adapter would cost a hundred bucks.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by civilitty on Monday June 11, 2018 @07:24PM (#17289485)
> Consider how much a 10 GbE card still costs -- this is the same speed! Apparently, it's not cheap making chips working with 10-20-40 gigabit/s line speeds but the market demands low cost. USB C wouldn't get far if a plain USB C to DP adapter would cost a hundred bucks.

You can thank the laws of physics for that because at 10+ gbit data rates you start needing crazy internal clock speeds (which can be significantly higher than the input clocks). Since the distance a signal can travel before it loses too much energy to register logic HIGH is proportional to the wavelength, you have to pack everything close enough while still doing what your specs call for. In the case of 10GigE and USB Type C, this means having to move to smaller fabrication processes than most companies are prepared for or even have access to.

Most protocols designed to be that fast are either massively parallelized to avoid this problem like PCIe/DDR2+ or very expensive to implement as peripherals/silicon like MIPI3/10GigE/USB Type C.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by chx on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @04:33AM (#17291650)
Yes, it seems ten gig is about where the fertilizer hits the circular cooling device. The new 2.5 and 5 gbe cards are much cheaper and DisplayPort 1.2 ICs with the 5.4 gbit HBR2 lane speed are widespread and of course there's USB 3.1 Gen 1 (formerly known as 3.0) with also 5 gbit/s. There is practically nothing working with the DP 1.3 defined HBR3 8.1 Gbit/s lane speed, though.

The only strange thing here is how five years ago we already had USB 3.0 and DP 1.2 devices in abundance but ten gig is still somewhat problematic.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by ksec on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:13AM (#17290860)
Regardless of industries, you can always assume, as it is always 98% of the cases, that any failure of correction or innovation is because 1) It doesn't improves their bottom line and 2) Anything that involves higher cost budget or lower profits.

That is why we need competitions. Sadly patents also prevent competitions from happening.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by kjeetgill on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:28PM (#17286447)
If an equivalent exists for USB 2.0, I'm surprised a company hasn't come it to sweep up the low hanging fruit.

Why do you think that is? Is there something in the spec that's holding anyone back? or is it a chicken and egg problem where no one invests in Type C because no one has yet?

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by tjoff on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:50PM (#17286633)
According to the spec a USB 2.0 to USB C cable must have a resistor that tells the USB C end to max deliver 0.5 A.

If another resistor is used to signal higher currents using that cable could fry peripherals that follow the USB 2.0 spec.

Also, I don't know much about USB 2.0 but I thought we had a whole slew of proprietary solutions for fast charging and all were incompatible with each other. So it was quite messy even before USB C came and made everything even worse.

For charging though you generally wan't to slow charge as it greatly reduces wear on batteries anyway.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by AngryData on Monday June 11, 2018 @03:31PM (#17287705)
You only really need to slow charge when you get near to top or bottom end of the battery's charge. From around 20-80% charge you can charge the fuck out of you shit with no drawbacks, but if you try and push the those limits then you start seeing significant wear.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by tjoff on Monday June 11, 2018 @06:05PM (#17289037)
Source?

I thought heat was the primary source of wear. And fast charge produces lots of heat regardless if it's in the middle of the range or not.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by lpmay on Monday June 11, 2018 @11:45PM (#17290565)
I'm not an electrochemist, but I have been told one of the major wear mechanisms is lithium plating, which is a function of anode voltage and charge current (and probably 100 other things). As I understand, the standard CI/CV charge cycle is very conservative to avoid this complexity. I believe more sophisticated parts like the TI Max charge series get around this by running estimators of the cells anode voltage and can scale charge current appropriately.

Sorry no good references to offer off hand, this is all just stuff I've been told by engineers and chemists. Take with a grain of salt.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by tjoff on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @08:16AM (#17292530)
I don't know enough to reason about it myself, but there are plenty of people that claim it has negative effects. And when pressed most people I've encountered that say that any negative effects are negligible reveal that their source have been marketing from the manufacturer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GalaxyS8/comments/7fg4sk/should_i_s...

I'm not saying the link above is supposed to be more credible than your post. But it is an alternative view point that resonates with most of what I've read.

For the same reason Tesla recommends you to not over-use supercharging (though this obviously is a sensitive subject), since it puts a toll on batteries - and Tesla unlike most other battery peripherals actually have good and active cooling.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by lpmay on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @10:43AM (#17293679)
Oh, no doubt heat is also not good for batteries (neither is the cold). I didn't mean to imply it wasn't.

However I'm still not sure heat is the first order effect limiting charge rates. If you consider that the charge efficiency of the cell is something around 99%, the total losses at a 1C rate relative to the thermal mass of the cell are pretty negligible ( nominally, around 3.6mW per A of charge current ). I'd wager that when your cellphone heats up under charge, that's primarily due to losses in the ~90+% efficient charger circuitry. Heat is heat, and that is still not good for the battery of course. I believe the cooling system in the Tesla is primarily for when the cells are being discharged, but it would be really interesting to hear the full story on that from a Tesla engineer.

I found the below link which also seems to imply the lithium plating as well as other chemical effects are the first order issues. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_caus...

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by tjoff on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:37PM (#17298280)
Thanks, I feel there is something missing when translating the stress tests made in that article to consumer peripherals. I get the impression that longevity is greatly sacrificed for short term performance in phones and laptops. But that is just me trying to explain why (my) phones and laptops loose their battery capacity so quickly.

Regarding Tesla supercharging I found this: https://www.teslarati.com/watch-tesla-battery-thermal-manage...

I also heard of issues of other cars (don't remember brand) who can't perform a supercharge - some driving - and then another supercharge because the batteries would overheat (still from the previous supercharge), preventing long trips.

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by lpmay on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @09:16PM (#17299493)
Yea, it's quite possible that something changes at these (scary) high charge rates. Maybe charge efficiency takes a nosedive, or there are some other effects that are non-linear with charge rate. Thanks for the link.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by outworlder on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:12PM (#17298056)
Anecdote: this is what my Nissan Leaf does. 20 to 80% it charges like a bat out of hell. 0-20 and 80-100 you might as well put a solar calculator to charge it up, takes a long time.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by extralego on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:11PM (#17286272)
Wouldn't there always be companies trying to sell the cheapest qualifier?

Wouldn't the expensive products you mention that "might work" become more affordable if they were manufactured at a higher rate? (But maybe they aren't because they are harder to sell)

>I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels.

Isn't the current market of so many low-cost Type-C devices evidence that the cost is already low?

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by Tloewald on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:13PM (#17288645)
The cost of crappy things that don't solve the problem described which leads to the mess we're complaining about is low, yes.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by vertexFarm on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:11PM (#17286273)
Forgive me for sounding extremely ignorant. I know this is not my area of specialty and I admit I'm about to sound stupid. I want to admit this right off the bat.

Can't you just hook up the VCC and ground from any USB charging IC to a type-c socket? It's all +5v right? I don't understand why the type of connector dictates how fast a cable should be useful for charging. That seems like it should be up to the simple gauge and length of the wire and thus how much current it can handle.

From what I've heard re: that chart in OP's link that shows the different fast charge rates for different manufacturer's wall warts and cables, most of that is caused by proprietary ICs doing sneaky things like throttling the charge rate when it discovers it isn't connected to an official Huawei cable or whatever through some resistor value going to ground from one of the data lines, or some similar method. Couldn't the IC in the device read the resistance / inductance of the cable and determine through that how much current it could handle? I feel like this is all bad faith shenanigans through proprietary cable DRM. When charging is concerned, a conductor is a conductor assuming there's enough thickness to prevent overheating, right?

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by mikeash on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:24PM (#17286402)
You can’t make that assumption at the end. These cables are as thin as they can possibly be to carry the maximum current they’re rated for. That maximum current could be 0.5A or it could be 5A. Try to pull 5A through a cable rated for 0.5A and you’re likely to burn the customer’s house down. You can’t really measure the resistance of the cable from one end. You can try to guess by watching for a voltage drop as you pull more current, but that’s extremely error prone. Because of this, all of the components are supposed to signal what they can handle, and if they don’t, they fall back to the minimum current known to work.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by thfuran on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:32PM (#17286476)
Wait, so a USB-C cable cannot be a completely passive component?
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by digi_owl on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:01PM (#17286725)
Yes and no. There is no IC in there, but there are small segment in the cable spec that talks about resistors on one of the lines that signal the type of cable available.

So you put one resistor in for a low rated C to C cable, another for a higher C to C rated, and yet another for an A to C converter (indicating that the C end should fall back to the older battery charging spec).

Guess how many fly by night cable manufacturers get those wrong...

the C to C spec charging, or Power Delivery, spec is a whole different barrel of stinking fish. Where you can have everything from 0.5A at 5V to multiple As at 20V running over the same C to C cable.

This is akin to the Qualcomm quickcharge scheme that run 9V over existing micro-USB cables and ports (thus allowing higher wattage without cranking up the amps).

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by kevin_thibedeau on Monday June 11, 2018 @04:29PM (#17288260)
Power Delivery is not just for USB-C. It was defined for use with USB 2.0 and up on any of the legacy connectors.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by digi_owl on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:15PM (#17288661)
While true on paper, i wonder if it will ever be implemented as such. And frankly it may well be yet another black mark on the mess that is USB "C" (or 3.1 or whatever).
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by barbegal on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:53PM (#17286672)
The resistor in the USB-C cable to identify its current carrying capacity is still a passive component. And of course you can omit this resistor but your device will fall back to the minimum current.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by andromeduck on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:56PM (#17286690)
They can be passive - thus the resistor to incidicate the cable's rating.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by theatrus2 on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:20PM (#17286372)
Type-C offers charge rates up to 100W, which means the voltage is ramped to 20V.

There is an entire protocol to negotiate power delivery (including who charges who) http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by digi_owl on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:02PM (#17286738)
And the latter part have caught some people unaware, where a battery pack and a phone will ping pong who is charging who until both are dead.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by chimeracoder on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:35PM (#17287051)
> And the latter part have caught some people unaware, where a battery pack and a phone will ping pong who is charging who until both are dead.

Or, if you're really unlucky, it'll attempt to charge your wall. No, I'm not joking: https://twitter.com/chimeracoder/status/941820122406064128

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by organsnyder on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:58PM (#17287336)
My phone has offered that option when I plug into the car. While the car could in theory benefit from the charge (it's a plug-in hybrid), I doubt the phone would be able to provide much of value.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by Johnny555 on Monday June 11, 2018 @04:43PM (#17288393)
Sounds like a good way to steal power from work -- charge up your phone at the office and supply power to your wall outlet when you come home.

:-)

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by digi_owl on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:55PM (#17287301)
Ok, that's it. Murphy does not need to verified any more. And i need a really really stiff drink.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by djsumdog on Monday June 11, 2018 @03:30PM (#17287694)
That is hilarious. At least it gives you the option.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by vertexFarm on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @09:06PM (#17299449)
Gotcha, I was wondering if the VBUS was dynamic. Thanks for clearing that up for me and linking to the documentation, I appreciate that.
Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by tadfisher on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:24PM (#17286399)
That's a tiny part of the USB 3.1 Power Delivery spec. The bulk of the issue lies in the negotiation between sink and source, which is fraught with complications.

PDF link: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva842/slva842.pdf

Re:USB Type-C is still a mess by Karrot_Kream on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:21PM (#17286378)
There's usually a lot more involved in charging a device, not to mention that USB-C can charge at 20V instead of just 5V. Charging speed is often based on current, but you also want to make sure you don't discharge too much current too quickly for various reasons (such as the battery capacity, and to prevent surges, etc). If you're curious, there are teardowns that go over chargers that discuss everything involved.