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Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by nanis on Saturday June 09, 2018 @03:47PM (#17274646)
This article and many others like it are written as if one ought to be ashamed for thinking self driving cars should not routinely smash into stationary objects on their paths or kill people:

    This isn't the only recent case where Autopilot steered
    a Tesla vehicle directly into a stationary
    object—though thankfully the others didn't get anyone
    killed. Back in January, firefighters in Culver City,
    California, said that a Tesla with Autopilot engaged
    had plowed into the back of a fire truck at 65mph. In
    an eerily similar incident last month, a Tesla Model S
    with Autopilot active crashed into a fire truck at
    60mph in the suburbs of Salt Lake City.

    A natural reaction to these incidents is to assume that
    there must be something seriously wrong with Tesla's
    Autopilot system. After all, you might expect that
    avoiding collisions with large, stationary objects like
    fire engines and concrete lane dividers would be one of
    the most basic functions of a car's automatic emergency
    braking technology.
Regardless of how they came to be, yes there is something seriously wrong with these systems.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rcthompson on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:03PM (#17274711)
This is an odd claim to make, since the article doesn't say anything at all about self-driving cars. Moreover, I don't think it's trying to shame anyone. It's making the point that there is a difference between crashing due to an error in the driver assistance systems and crashing due to encountering a situation that the system is incapable of handling. The tail end of the article states unambiguously that this is not an acceptable state of affairs, and that the next generation of driver assistance systems needs to take a different approach.

As to whether this article is really a stealth advertisement for GM's Super Cruise technology, well... yeah, it probably is. But I still found it informative as to the current state of driver assistance systems. I was not aware that the cruise control, lane keeping, and automatic braking systems were generally completely independent of each other.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by joe_the_user on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:39PM (#17274859)
Moreover, I don't think it's trying to shame anyone. It's making the point that there is a difference between crashing due to an error in the driver assistance systems and crashing due to encountering a situation that the system is incapable of handling.

Well, that point is most likely lost on someone who dies in a crash of these cars. IE, the difference is big from some viewpoints but irrelevant from others.

I think we can see the point where objections to self-driving cars start to become strong. It's not some cooked-up version of the "trolley car problem" but a situation where a self-driving car does something a human observer naturally interprets as "wrong" and "dumb", does it in a way that kills someone and the designers give the answer "sorry, not a mistake, just a necessary design compromise. This is still, on-average safer than a human". I think this would produce a strong emotional effect regardless of any "generally safer" assertion.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rcthompson on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:50PM (#17274913)
Knowing the difference is important because in one case, you need to fix a bug, and in the other case, you need to design a new system (or decide that the problem is unfixable and give up).
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by SiempreViernes on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:32PM (#17275386)
How do you un-kill a dead driver with a software release or a new design spec?

A person is dead mainly due to the presence of a driver-assist system, this is unquestionable.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rcthompson on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:52PM (#17275457)
Who was questioning it? Who was suggesting that it was possible to undo a death that has already happened? I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

All I'm saying is that the distinction is important from the perspective of someone who wants to prevent this from happening again, and the perspective of someone who is in charge of making the laws and regulations to prevent this from happening again, and the perspective of the people voting for those lawmakers.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:25PM (#17275362)
I think Timothy B. Lee, the author of the article, was caught up in the early hype about "self-driving" cars, obviously before he (or many others) had a good understanding of the technology. He's covered the field extensively. Now that the limitations of the technology are becoming more clear, it seems to me he's trying to negotiate the very narrow border between keeping his original enthusiasm up, and not spreading misinformation. I interpret this article as an attempt to keep some sort of balance, between reporting on a promising technology without over-promising and without veering too far into accusing his own readers of ignorance.

But, hey. I'm not in the guy's head :)

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by binarybits on Saturday June 09, 2018 @09:48PM (#17275997)
Timothy B. Lee here. You are correct, except that I think it's a mistake to treat ADAS systems as "self-driving cars." I'm bullish on true self-driving car projects like Waymo and Cruise. I think ADAS systems have a lot of problems that have become more clear to me as I've covered them in more depth.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:03AM (#17277913)
Ohi Timothy! Great to see you here :)

I think that full autonomy (level 4 and 5) is an AI-complete problem and a true solution is many, many years away. On the other hand, I'm not an expert (I'm doing an AI PhD but on a different subject) so I may be overestimating the difficulties involved.

One problem with reporting on autonomous driving is that a lot of the technology is proprietary and the research takes place behind closed doors, so it's very hard to understand exactly where the state of the art is. We're left with the announcements from the companies who actually sell it, that will inevitably tend to be overinflated.

As the technology becomes more common, I guess we'll all end up adjusting our expectations, one way or another. I'm looking forward to your future articles :)

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by tracer4201 on Saturday June 09, 2018 @03:57PM (#17274683)
Didn't hit me that way. Sounds more like we as consumers misinterpret what the technology is and trust it too much... of course, there's a feedback loop where companies like Tesla call everything autonomous and hype the marketing to mislead consumers.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by stevenwoo on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:47PM (#17274893)
It seems like the radar/camera system Toyota uses for its Pre Collision System has the same weaknesses as Tesla's sensor suite but the list of exceptions in the Toyota manual is pretty brutally honest about the issues. Just for pedestrians it warns: Some pedestrians such as the following may not be detected by the radar sensor and camera sensor, preventing the system from operating properly:

• Pedestrians shorter than approximately 3.2 ft. (1 m) or taller than approx- imately 6.5 ft. (2 m)

• Pedestrians wearing oversized clothing (a rain coat, long skirt, etc.), mak- ing their silhouette obscure

• Pedestrians who are carrying large baggage, holding an umbrella, etc., hiding part of their body

• Pedestrians who are bending forward or squatting

• Pedestrians who are pushing a stroller, wheelchair, bicycle or other vehi- cle

• Groups of pedestrians which are close together

• Pedestrians who are wearing white and look extremely bright

• Pedestrians in the dark, such as at night or while in a tunnel

• Pedestrians whose clothing appears to be nearly the same color or brightness as their surroundings

• Pedestrians near walls, fences, guardrails, or large objects

• Pedestrians who are on a metal object (manhole cover, steel plate, etc.) on the road

• Pedestrians who are walking fast

• Pedestrians who are changing speed abruptly

• Pedestrians running out from behind a vehicle or a large object

• Pedestrians who are extremely close to the side of the vehicle (outside rear view mirror, etc.)

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by sib on Saturday June 09, 2018 @07:44PM (#17275627)
I'm trying to figure out whether there are actually a meaningful fraction of pedestrians who would be detected...
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rootusrootus on Saturday June 09, 2018 @08:51PM (#17275831)
I imagine that list was drafted with the direction of the legal department and they wanted to exhaustive list that might very well exclude basically all pedestrians. They don't really expect many people to read it unless they find themselves in court, when it will be too late.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by taneq on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:53AM (#17276787)
It still somewhat baffles me that these systems are trying to identify certain classes of object to avoid colliding with, rather than simply avoiding hitting anything solid over a certain size. Do I care whether the thing in front of me is a hatchback or a group of pedestrians? No! I just want the car not to hit it!
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by octothorp3 on Saturday June 09, 2018 @11:00PM (#17276181)
Huh, most of these I can understand with my layman's understanding of the sensors involved, but why would it miss the pedestrians who are on a metal manhole cover?
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday June 09, 2018 @11:32PM (#17276307)
Not a Toyota engineer familiar with the problem, but my guess is a metal object produces a radar reflection significantly different from a pedestrian.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Spooky23 on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:57PM (#17274948)
Why be so defensive of Tesla?

This isn’t fluffing up phone features, it’s presenting a system in such a way that key, known deficiencies that maim or kill are buried.

The people impacted by this trusted the system based on manufacturer claims, which unfortunately were and remain horseshit.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rhizome on Saturday June 09, 2018 @05:29PM (#17275107)
Isn't it designed and marketed to be trusted?
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by vkou on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:29PM (#17274815)
It's not companies like Tesla. As far as I can tell, it's just Tesla.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by marcell on Saturday June 09, 2018 @03:53PM (#17274662)
I didn’t get that at all. It was written in a dispassionate tone but it didn’t blame the driver at any point.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by dredmorbius on Saturday June 09, 2018 @05:16PM (#17275043)
I see this as far more a caution to the public for presuming that automated systems have a singular worldview as humans ... think ... we ourselves do[1], rather than being comprised of multiple and independent systems. And a caution to both the technologists who fail to consider this and real-world use consequences, as well as those who fail to see divorced systems as problematic.

The real world is where all your independent worldviews are tested, simultaneously and integrated. And where metaphor shear may well prove fatal.

________________________________

Notes:

1. A not-necessarily accurate worldview itself, though I'll leave that to the cog-psych types to explore in depth.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rcthompson on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:48PM (#17274903)
Regarding your edit, I agree that, in isolation, the passage you quoted can easily be misinterpreted to imply that the current functioning of these systems is acceptable, and the only reason I didn't read it that way is because the rest of the article explicitly rejects that interpretation.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by ambicapter on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:31PM (#17274826)
Sounds more like sarcasm than anything else.