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Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by seibelj on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @08:48PM (#17184028)
Educated people who hate GMO are instant signal that they don’t understand science. A good filter
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sersi on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @08:57PM (#17184081)
I don't necessarily hate all GMO but I'm very dubious about GMO crops that are engineered to withstand Glyphosate better and I prefer not to eat such crops because they are more likely to have been treated with this herbicide.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by randomdata on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:34PM (#17184589)
Farmer here: We apply glyphosate to both GMO (roundup ready) and non-GMO crops. The big difference is when: The roundup ready crops can have it applied early in the growing season. The non-GMO crops have to wait until just before harvest, when you don't care, or even prefer, that the crop dies.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by BurningFrog on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:46PM (#17184630)
What's the benefit to apply glyphosate just before harvest.

Hasn't all the growing already been done? Is it to avoid bringing in bugs with the harvest?

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by randomdata on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:03AM (#17184975)
Weed control for future crops and/or desiccation.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by Cogito on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @01:46AM (#17185372)
Some farmers with apply roundup just before harvest in order to desiccate the plant. This makes harvesting much simpler and cheaper, as you don't have to wait for the plants to dry naturally, or deal with moisture rich plants after harvest.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sampo on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:32PM (#17184580)
Actually, they use just as much glyphosate when growing wheat (not GMO) as when growing corn (maybe 80% is GMO) in the US.

    USA
    corn
      production     333 000 000 tons
      glyphosate use  69 000 000 lb
    wheat
      production      58 000 000 tons
      glyphosate use  17 000 000 lb
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044953/ (Table 3)
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by empthought on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:13PM (#17184184)
Why? Are you a dicotyledon that relies on the shikimic acid pathway to synthesize folates?
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by whatshisface on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:17PM (#17184509)
The parent is probably a very complex system with too many pathways involved in their life to be confident that none of them will get involved in a side-reaction. I'm not a surface impurity on a roll of sheet metal but that doesn't mean I'll stick my hand into a steel pickling vat.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by empthought on Friday June 01, 2018 @03:01AM (#17203186)
That’s just as legitimate an argument for eating nothing at all, though.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by daveFNbuck on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:07PM (#17184149)
Why do you have that preference? It's my understanding that the alternatives are worse.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by hutzlibu on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:47PM (#17184370)
Organic food is worse than food wich was treated with various chemicals to kill living things?

Thats news to me.

But you probably mean "alternatives" for producing dirt cheap. Then yes, there are much worse substances around. Doesn't make it good, though.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by nwallin on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:35PM (#17184590)
Organic food IS food which is treated with various chemicals to kill living things. But the list of various chemicals are arbitrarily defined as "natural", putting them in the same list as other safe, natural chemicals like ricin, botulinum, strychnine, arsenic...

"Organic" is a marketing term, not a descriptor of the production process.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by commandar on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:17PM (#17184789)
>"Organic" is a marketing term, not a descriptor of the production process.

I generally agree with this, but with the caveat that tomatoes are an exception as I understand it.

It's nothing to do with being GMO or pesticides used, but rather the fact that conventionally grown tomatoes are generally harvested significantly pre-ripening, and then gassed with ethylene to promote them turning red.

My understanding -- and if I'm wrong about this someone please do chime in -- is that ethylene gassing isn't acceptable for tomatoes that are labeled organic (but is for some "organic" fruits like bananas). It's possible it's all placebo, but tomatoes are the one fruit/vegetable I tend toward actually using organic as result.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by daveFNbuck on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:23PM (#17184544)
No, I mean that the chemicals used in organic farming to kill living things are more harmful to humans than glyphosate is.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by hutzlibu on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:41PM (#17184609)
The (small) organic farmers I know dont use pesticides at all. And as far as I know, here in europe they would not be allowed to use anything realy toxic, when they want to have the organic label.

So things are different in the US then? Or also for europe? sources please.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:01PM (#17184708)
> The (small) organic farmers I know dont use pesticides at all.

They aren't representative of the bulk of organic food production. Overall, organic food production is, like non-organic food production, dominated by large, industrial agriculture concerns that do use pesticides.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sampo on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:26PM (#17184823)
Here's a list of 12 chemicals approved for use in organic farming:

https://risk-monger.com/2016/04/13/the-risk-mongers-dirty-do...

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by barrkel on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:08AM (#17184997)
That site believes organic farming is a hoax. It also also seems to be mixing up data about US regulation and UK opinion (and thus EU regulation). An intro to EU regulation for organic plant farming is https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-...
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:58PM (#17184688)
> Organic food is worse than food wich was treated with various chemicals to kill living things?

Organic food is, itself, generally food which is treated with various chemicals to kill living things. The choice of chemicals involved, and the choice of actual food crop, is limited by concerns that are chosen on bases which are not well adapted to either maximizing safety of the food or minimizing environmental impact of the food growing process.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by driverdan on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:20PM (#17184529)
Organic food is treated with pesticides and herbicides too. There's a limited list of allowed chemicals, some of which are much worse than glycophosphate.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by barrkel on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:14AM (#17185023)
To be sure we're all on the same page, there are differences in organic regulation in the US vs the EU. I don't know much about the US situation, but an outline of EU general regulations for organic plants is https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-... :

> Basic substances allowed in organic agriculture comply with two criteria: i) they are of vegetable or animal origin ii) they are considered to be "foodstuff"

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by icebraining on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @01:21AM (#17185268)
That's not true, though, there are authorized exceptions, like copper. See Annex II, table 3: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=uriserv%...
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by 21 on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:01PM (#17184113)
Right, don't forget about people who are opposed to nuclear because of Fukushima. A good filter of people who don't understand science and how safe the nuclear industry is.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:48PM (#17184375)
I'm pro nuclear, but given that the side effects on the oceans and hence the entire planet are still to be accounted for and that we won't know before decades, I find that comment quite arrogant.

It's also discarding the real suffering of all the people that were affected by the 3 major nuclear accidents. I have a friend of mine who his medicated for life because of Chernobyl.

Black and white are rarely the winning colors.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by Turing_Machine on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:55PM (#17184934)
> I'm pro nuclear, but given that the side effects on the oceans and hence the entire planet are still to be accounted for and that we won't know before decades, I find that comment quite arrogant.

The ocean already has about 4.5 billion tons of naturally-occurring uranium in it, as well as many other radioactive substances. Fukushima wouldn't have made a significant difference in that figure if they'd ground up the entire reactor to a powder and dumped every single bit of it in the ocean. You could perhaps produce localized contamination by doing that, but not on the scale of the oceans as a whole.

For that matter, the Soviet Union used to dump their scrap submarine reactors straight into the ocean. They did that with a bunch of them.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:44AM (#17186557)
> The ocean already has about 4.5 billion tons of naturally-occurring uranium in it

Intensity and locality are important factors. You can eat a spoonfull of sugar everyday for a year and be ok, but eating 365 in one day is going to be a different story.

Because ocean are very complex an interactive system, and local intense event can then have a domino effect on the rest.

Now as I said, we don't know the effects yet. I'm not pretending I know if it's bad either. That's the meaning of "we don't know".

But given we have only one planet and we kinda sitting on it, it seems very silly to me to state "nah, we'll be fine" and discard risks. That's how teenagers react.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by Jedd on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:19PM (#17184793)
I suspect parent's comment was actually sarcastic, rather than arrogant.

Nuclear is a term burdened with ambiguity - most people mean nuclear fission, some people mean nuclear fusion. As far as filters for scientific understanding, it's probably better than 'GMO is bad'.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by mathgladiator on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @08:55PM (#17184067)
Or that they understand science and don't want to be in the experimental group. They would rather be in the control.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:57PM (#17184419)
That's a rather elegant and funny way to put it.

Unfortunately, a huge issue is that it's almost impossible to be in the control group anymore. Or if it is, it demands huge efforts and is very hard to check the success of it.

I understand the scientists defending the GMO. But quite often, they assume people in charge are making decisions the same way they do. However, the people in charge often make decisions according to economical factors, science being just a tool toward that goal.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by p1necone on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:11PM (#17184176)
Lots of smart people have problems with Monsanto's business practices rather than GMO specifically.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by KC8ZKF on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:16PM (#17184212)
Maybe we should have "Non-Monsanto" labels then, instead of "Non-GMO."
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:07PM (#17184467)
Also, the fact is that Monsanto, which has had trouble with its ethical reputation, is very adamant about GMO.

So if you don't trust Monsanto for most things, you will especially not trust it to tell you the truth about the safety of its products nor about the completeness of their tests to ensure said safety.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:06PM (#17184732)
> Also, the fact is that Monsanto, which has had trouble with its ethical reputation, is very adamant about GMO.

It's adamant about the safety of its GMO lines and (in the case of Roundup Ready) the pesticide products that are complementary to them.

It's, OTOH, also a big producer of non-GMO seed and actively markets products to the organic food industry.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by nradov on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:17AM (#17185035)
What specifically has Monsanto done that was unethical?
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @06:14AM (#17186458)
It creates seeds you can't harvest, plant and grow again to maintain a captive market.

When it can't do that, it sues farmers that harvest, plan and grow the seed it wants to protect.

This includes Monsanto's crops contaminating other crops like in the Vernon Hugh Bowman case.

It also promoted (at least in France) round up as biodegradable but we eventually found out it didn't, and went to contaminate the drinking water.

Which is a problem, given that glyphosate based products are currently in the process of being banned in Europe.

The answer from Monsanto to that has been ghostwriting reports and pretend they didn't come from them.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by nradov on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @08:46AM (#17187214)
The Supreme Court unanimously disagreed with you on Bowman v. Monsanto so I fail to see what was unethical there. In fact Vernon Bowman intentionally violated a contract that he voluntarily entered into so it seems clear he was the unethical party.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @10:07AM (#17187719)
Legality and ethics are very different things.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by nradov on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @11:04AM (#17188226)
Not at all. US law is pretty much in line with the national consensus on ethics (although perhaps not with your personal ethics). There are occasional discrepancies but when the national consensus undergoes major shifts the laws are usually revised accordingly within a few decades.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:40PM (#17189185)
US people can't remotely agree on death penalty, marijuana usage, gun control, gay support, the church, abortion, war, trump or snowden. In a country where it's legal to openly give money to politicians, spy on all citizens and by pass habeas corpus.

I really doubt your statement.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by nradov on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @02:04PM (#17190014)
So you agree with me that there are no clear universal ethical standards in some areas. You still haven't shown how Monsanto's actions were unethical.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by sametmax on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @03:36PM (#17191002)
Yes. Lying about harmful products you are selling is something unethical to my taste. At this point, I expect you to disagree.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by namibj on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:42PM (#17184890)
In my case it's with the hard push to Hybrids, which is a major risk for the stability of the world's food supply (due to the strong mono culture, it's relatively easy for a willing player to first stock up on food, and then deliver pests for all major food hybrids that are only as effective because they are hybrids and not a healthy pool of genetic diversity. Also, if the hybrid seeds producing facilities were to be targeted, at the right time, it might not be possible to coordinate sufficient seeding of the available seeds, which the farmers might not even know how to plant/grow, as the non-hybrids are rather different from the hybrids, as far as optimum growing parameters go.

The primary issue with Monsanto specifically would then be that they actively try to prevent farmers from using non-hybrid seeds. Also, one would be surprised how well grains grow without pesticides, if the land is properly cared for. There was a time before pesticides were as widely available, and they did not have the time to weed the whole field by hand ;)

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by nradov on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:15AM (#17185026)
If it's so easy to deliver pests which target those crops then why hasn't any terrorist group done it yet? The reality is that it would be extremely difficult, perhaps impossible with current technology.

Farmers aren't stupid. Monsanto has no way to prevent them from using non-hybrid seeds. Farmers will plant whichever seeds they expect to deliver the highest ROI.

Grain production before pesticides was far lower. Back then famines were common rather than something that only happened during wartime. Don't ask us to return to the dark ages.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by jacobush on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @02:34AM (#17185550)
What about Monsanto suing everyone?
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:02PM (#17184716)
Most of those, too, turn out to be supported by myths about specific cases they have been spread by anti-GMO propagandists.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by redstripe on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @09:53PM (#17184403)
That's not saying much. Most of us don't understand most science behind anything outside of our limited specializations. These beliefs are manifestations of people's distrust of large institutions.

People believe GMO is bad because they believe that large corporations would do anything for a buck regardless of long term consequences.

Alien abduction, anti-vaxers, 9/11 inside job and other conspiracy theories are just ways for people to express their distrust of government.

Global warming deniers don't trust the liberal media.

The pattern is: I don't trust X. What is the worst thing I could believe about X.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by cgag on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:15PM (#17184782)
There's a world of difference between a proper conspiracy and thinking GMOs and powerful pesticides might not be a good idea. I don't avoid them but I don't think it's all that unlikely they'll turn out to have negative effects.
Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by ksec on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:39AM (#17185103)
And you just filter out most of of the world. Most in EU are against GMO, China is against imported GMO ( They only allow certain GMO options / products ) The only nation on earth that is a large proponent of GMO food is US. But even US consumers are divided on this issues

At one point in time I thought GMO was a necessary evil, in order to feed the world better. Simplot used to pride their GMO potato that has much better yields then anyone else on the planet. But climate changes proves no breed is best for all time. In the mean time, a few European companies ; failing to combat the GMO production yield and had comparatively worse climate to grown potatoes, manage to outrun any US companies potato yield with machine learning. This is of course an over simplify version of it, but the story proves we don't need GMO to feed the world.

Re:De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @10:07PM (#17184464)
> Educated people who hate GMO are instant signal that they don’t understand science.

Not actually being familiar with the science in a particular domain and not understanding as science are very different things.