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Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by dwrowe on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:59PM (#17135737)
Genuine question as it pertains to US-based companies. How can a foreign law have such seemingly deep impact on US-based companies, let alone, situations where the visitor is not paying for services? Maybe this gets into International Law, but even if I'm not _targeting_ European visitors, say they cross some threshold by percentage compared to US visitors - why must I abide by a foreign law?
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by Waterluvian on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:05PM (#17135803)
It's really funny to read this because my perception, possibly wrong, is that the U.S. acts this way all the time to the rest of the world.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by dwrowe on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:07PM (#17135816)
That perception is likely more true than many Americans would prefer to admit.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by the_watcher on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:21PM (#17135977)
As an American, I agree with this. It comes down to the value of the market. GDPR has a major impact on American companies because the EU is a valuable market - as I understand it, every company has the option to opt out of GDPR by ceasing operations in the EU, which would mean blocking EU traffic (I may be oversimplifying a bit, but the crux is the same). The US treats the rest of the world complying with its laws the same way, and any company could opt out of US laws by not servicing US customers.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by ovao on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:10PM (#17135856)
Can you provide a few examples?
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by rbehrends on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:48PM (#17136270)
FATCA, for example. It forces all foreign banks with US customers to report their customers and their assets to the US treasury or suffer a 30% withholding tax on all US sourced payments [1].

Needless to say, non-compliance is not a real option for most banks, given the importance of the US in the banking sector, so they're essentially being blackmailed into compliance.

(Unfortunately for US expats, some foreign banks figured out that the easiest way to be compliant was simply to get rid of their US customers.)

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/1471

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by lawn on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:13PM (#17135893)
In Sweden we have a mandatory tax on all storage units, harddrives, dvds usb drives, you name it. This is to combat piracy and the loss of profit for companies.

Of course this was pushed through by US lobbyists and, you guessed it, that's where the money goes as well.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by kodablah on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:04PM (#17136442)
Completely different situation. If it was only to sales to US customers, then it would be comparable. That the Swedish government allowed external influence to change the laws for its own citizens is nothing like the GDPR applying only to EU citizens.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by ekianjo on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:30PM (#17136075)
> Of course this was pushed through by US lobbyists and, you guessed it, that's where the money goes as well.

You can be certain that some (local) politicians got some kick-backs out of it.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by tomp on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:48AM (#17141915)
Same in Slovenia, I think. I actually love this tax! It allows me to pirate guilt-free :D
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by mykull on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:22PM (#17135987)
The US expects to be asked permission before encryption technology can be used in a software product. Our copyright and general intellectual property policy has been pushed on everyone else. We (The US) even go so far as to heavily interfere in other countries politics, covertly or overtly, to maintain favorable trade conditions and protect our prevailing ideology.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by espadrine on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:34PM (#17136125)
DMCA is a big one. Copyright, in general: not complying with US regulations, even if you are in, say Sweden (cough Pirate Bay), is unwise.

There is also the impact of PATRIOT section 215 and FISA, which requires some foreign companies to ensure that some sensitive data is not stored on devices operated by American companies.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by Waterluvian on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:35PM (#17136134)
Kim Dotcom and the U.S. meddling in NZ.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by guitarbill on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:23PM (#17135997)
Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) and Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act (FACTA)/Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) are the two obvious ones.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by jdietrich on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:10PM (#17137152)
The US blocked Antiguan gambling companies from doing business with American citizens, despite permitting domestic companies to offer the same services. The US lost a WTO dispute and refused to pay the settlement, which now amounts to nearly $300m. Bizarrely, the WTO granted Antigua the right to breach American copyright law by way of restitution.

https://calvinayre.com/2016/11/28/business/antigua-warn-amer...

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by the_mitsuhiko on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:38PM (#17136155)
FATCA is a huge one. It's a huge cost to European tax payers and it's not even clear if it benefits Americans.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by Waterluvian on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:18PM (#17135953)
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by s73v3r_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:29PM (#17136680)
The US pulling out of the Iran Nuclear Deal, and forcing sanctions on those companies that are doing business both in Iran and the US.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by downandout on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:31PM (#17136082)
It’s questionable as to whether or not judgements under the GDPR can be enforced in the US. There are existing treaties that generally enable this, but those also allow for a large number of exceptions. One of those exceptions is usually where something is illegal in one country and not illegal in the other, but we’ve been told there may be exceptions to that as well. It’s a big mess, but generally it would be up to a US judge in each individual case to decide whether the judgment can be domesticated.

However, recital 23 makes it clear that you do not need to comply with GDPR unless ”it is apparent that [you] envisage offering services to data subjects in one or more Member States in the Union”. In other words, it’s not your fault if you are a US-based site and it goes viral in the EU unless it was targeted to them.

Don’t translate to EU only languages, mention EU users or customers, or use an EU-based domain extension. You can also announce your intention to not serve EU customers by blocking EU visitors. Even though some EU traffic may get to your site through VPNs etc, merely trying to block them is more than enough to show that you do not “envisage” serving EU customers, which makes you not subject to GDPR. Those EU users that evade your block through technical means are not subject to the protections of the GDPR.

Finally, one law firm suggested that we put a checkbox similar to this on our registration forms:

”This website was designed to comply with US privacy laws. By checking this box, you attest that you are NOT subject to any law or regulation that conflicts with or is more restrictive than US privacy laws, including but not limited to the GDPR.”

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by _o_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:13PM (#17136528)
Hm, that seems like a good advice, I was thinking about that too, and came to quite tricky problem, hypothetical situation: EU user uses technical measures (or just click the checkbox) to circumvent your blocking and then sues your ads provider which is US based and does operate in EU, due to personal data collection without consent. And they figure out they are having legal/operational costs due to you, as operator, serving them poisoned data.

Can they (ads provider) sue you? And if they do, even if you are not guilty, how much money would it cost to win at the court?

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by downandout on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:35PM (#17136755)
Talk to any proponent of the GDPR, and they’ll tell you that it’s all about principles and intentions. But that’s a double-edged sword. Sites can’t lure EU users in and ignore GDPR, but at the same time, users cannot lie to you, and then go file a complaint with a regulator or demand rights that they told you they don’t have (either by using a VPN, which means they are lying about their location, or checking the box attesting to something they know to be false).

When looking at whether an action can proceed under the GDPR (either against you or an ad network whose code you have on your site), their regulators will review your site and see that the checkbox was required to register. That, combined with not having content or services targeted to EU users, should stop any GDPR action in its tracks before it is filed.

This of course all depends on the GDPR being enforced in good faith. They have every incentive to be abusive with it, and no incentive not to be. But we just have to hope that newly self-declared privacy overlords in the EU are kind and benevolent.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by scruple on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:39PM (#17137444)
> Talk to any proponent of the GDPR, and they’ll tell you that it’s all about principles and intentions.

Here's a random and perhaps unfounded thought that I've had a couple of times regarding this line of thought re: GDPR.

What to stop some foreign bad actors from abusing the hell out of this legislation and burning up more useful time and energy on it? Moving beyond that, it would very likely serve to further divide and erode the trust between the EU and the US.

For example, if we're to assume that Russia is seriously meddling in everything that they currently stand accused of meddling in, essentially engaging in some loose, and seemingly effective (depending on who you ask), forms of cyber warfare, then what is to stop them from turning this regulation in to a complete nightmare for US/EU relations and further driving us away from our common goals?

It just seems to me that these sorts of good faith and intentions based laws don't work as effectively in the modern era as they maybe once did.

edit/ It honestly doesn't even need to be so malicious. I could imagine trolls causing more than enough trouble for small businesses just for the lulz.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by downandout on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:03PM (#17137690)
What to stop some foreign bad actors from abusing the hell out of this legislation and burning up more useful time and energy on it?

Nothing, and in fact it incentivizes each of the 28 countries to act in bad faith. The crippling fines authorized by GDPR have the potential to both create enormous revenue streams and hobble foreign competitors of local companies. GDPR advocates say this won’t happen, but there is nothing to stop it.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by tomp on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:10AM (#17142048)
> further divide and erode the trust between the EU and the US.

You mean more than all the leaks of EU data by US companies that go unpunished because of loose/nonexistent US privacy laws?

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by _o_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:43PM (#17137487)
Yes, but doesn't the checkbox you mentioned, does exactly that, force the users to ignore their rights for the sake of using your site? If this would be acceptable, it would put GDPR into position of cookie law nonsense and if I understood ICOs correctly, this doesn't create a consent as user had no free choice. There is a human rights interpretation here, for example, if we create a contract, that I will be your slave and you give me a car in return, it is quite simple for me to sign it, that contract would be void even if you prove, that I signed it.

The ICO put a market of live human organs as example.

In same manner, even if I would click that I agree, that your site is designed for US privacy laws and not for people under GDPR protection, it would be the same as you would warn me, that I will be your slave before signing and that I can just walk away and don't take the car. But if I take the car, the contract would still be void. I don't think that this would fly.

The problem is not in the GDPR requirements but rather in right to privacy as fundamental human right and GDPR is just an advice how to respect it - it is actually a free help.

What you want to avoid is something much bigger than the checkbox on your site or ip blocking, check here "The Bill of Rights":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_rights

This is something you shouldn't even think to violate, not to EU or US users. Or anyone else.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by downandout on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:56PM (#17137618)
Yes, but doesn't the checkbox you mentioned, does exactly that, force the users to ignore their rights for the sake of using your site?

It doesn’t force them to do anything, nor does it ask them to waive any of their rights (which is often illegal and/or unenforceable). Instead, it asks them to certify that they are not subject to laws more restrictive than those in the US. If they are, they are not allowed to register. As the site owner, you have a legal right to rely on your users not lying to you. Your slavery example is an entirely different scenario - you are asking people to waive rights they have (to not be a slave in this case). That’s not what this checkbox says.

The main point of the checkbox is to signify your intention to not offer services to people subject to the GDPR or other restrictive laws. We have been advised (by actual attorneys) that this should meet the standard built into the GDPR that we do not “envisage” the offering of goods or services to those subject to it.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by _o_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:23PM (#17137876)
Exactly this is the problem of GDPR, user can lie, and you have no passive defense against it, you can't even make an excuse, you didn't know. You shouldn't even offer him a choice. The only defense is that the user gives you consent to it (at least GDPR is giving that choice). Everything else is void. Same as with slavery. You can't violate fundamential human rights even if user begs you to do it, except in states like South Korea, China (actually, you don't need to beg there =/)

I think that at the end, world will be better place due to GDPR, but there is surely some rough ride ahead - not due to respect of privacy but due to violating it so often that it became normal to us.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by downandout on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:44PM (#17138087)
Again, if they lie to you, you’re covered. It’s about your intent. Do you intend to offer goods and services in GDPR-affected countries? If you have a checkbox like this, then you clearly don’t, and GDPR does not apply to you.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by _o_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:00PM (#17138233)
Yes, I understood your point, but I think you are struggling with mine, you might not offer goods to EU, but your ads provider might. And by feeding it with GDPR protected data it might sue you, on local courts, just for the PR reasons or something else. I am not saying they will, I am just showing you the justification why they might.

I think that much greater threat is comming from a direction of US companies you use than from EU courts this (again, might) become another "patent trolling"-like action from some US companies.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by downandout on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:05PM (#17138284)
Yes, but you’re feeding them data based on your understanding that the user is not subject to the GDPR. Under GDPR, site owners have the responsibility to determine this, and they rely on you to not load their code if a user is subject to it. So the EU cannot go after anyone whose code is on your site (ad networks, analytics providers, etc) if your site does not “envisage” offering services to EU residents.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by _o_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:09PM (#17138320)
Well, we can't be much smarter than this, we will see, but I am more concerned about this than GDPR on its own.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by kazen44 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:03PM (#17135782)
because the EU has enough global influence in terms of it economic power that it is able to hurt economic interests of US companies who want to operate in the EU.

For most of the world, this has been true in regards to following US laws for a long time. (DMCA, copyright law)

In the end, international law is mostly a game of (economic) influence, and the EU is economically significant enough for these companies for EU law to matter.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by chimeracoder on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:10PM (#17136500)
> For most of the world, this has been true in regards to following US laws for a long time. (DMCA, copyright law)

Let's not pretend that the US is unilaterally shoving copyright law onto the rest of the world. When the US made its last major overhaul of the copyright system, it was to harmonize copyright law with what already existed in Europe. In addition, the EU already signed onto the TTIP, which is a massive concession to the media industry on copyright. That wasn't due to US influence; in fact, the US backed out of the TPP.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by kazen44 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:14PM (#17136529)
> the EU already signed the TTIP, which is a massive concession to the media industry on copyright. That wasn't due to US influence; in fact, the US backed out of the TPP.

TTIP was NOT signed into law already. It is also a completely different treaty from TTP. (TTP has nothing to do with the EU btw).

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by chimeracoder on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:49PM (#17136935)
> TTIP was NOT signed into law already. It is also a completely different treaty from TTP. (TTP has nothing to do with the EU btw).

TTIP hasn't been signed into law, but it's been written by EU member states to serve EU members' interests, so it's pretty reasonable to use it as a measure of what the EU wants.

TPP is a different treaty from the TTIP, though not very - the TPP and TTIP were written in tandem to be companion agreements, and the TPP contains many provisions that were explicitly included as concessions to the interests of EU states, even though they're not parties to the TPP itself.

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by Vinnl on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:07PM (#17135815)
If a US-based company is not making any money from EU-based users or companies, I don't think there's anything they have to do. When they do, however, that money supply can be targeted.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by the_watcher on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:23PM (#17135996)
GDPR is far more aggressive than this. If you collect data on EU residents (this data collection is defined extremely broadly - basically any kind of logging or tracking on a session level), GDPR applies, and the fines are based on global revenue, not revenue derived from EU users.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by lovich on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:33PM (#17136107)
The EU can't reach over into another country and start applying their laws unless they are willing to invade. The only way the EU has to enforce this law is if you interact with them, so they can physically block or take your assets, or if your government thinks that the EU laws should be applied at home, in which case why are you complaining to the EU?

There is no world police enforcing laws in every country. It all boils down to a monopoly on violence and if a country can't physically get to you or your stuff you can tell them to fuck off all day

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by rovek on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:44PM (#17136218)
I think the spirit of GDPR is to target the multinationals who also have tax dodging subsidiaries the world over. E.g. The EU could calculate global revenue for Facebook and then fine Facebook Ireland (or wherever) the resulting sum; which Facebook Ireland would be legally obliged to pay. But I am speculating

Edit for clarity

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by 0x4f3759df on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:44PM (#17136212)
If they can enforce their data protection laws on the global net, why can't they enforce their 'hate speech' laws on the global net?
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by Pulcinella on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:31PM (#17136699)
They do. For example, Twitter filters out Nazi related hate speech in Germany and France.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by jamescostian on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:33PM (#17136110)
What happens if you have no presence in the EU and the EU tries to fine you? How do they actually get you to pay the fine instead of just ignoring it?
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by test525 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:22PM (#17136617)
You just become persona non-grata in the entire continent of Europe.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by orwin on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:57PM (#17137038)
The company can't make business deal with europe. People owning the company are fine and can't visit with no fear of being annoyed by the police, the EU is not the US.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by fixermark on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:39PM (#17136162)
What organization is responsible for fine enforcement?

If such a fine is levied, but the company is based in China, does China have any treaties with the EU demanding the fine be enforced, or can they tell the EU to go pound sand?

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by yorwba on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:17PM (#17136563)
Yesterday I was presented with WeChat's Cookie policy for European users [1] for the first time, and they appear to have a European subsidiary, which could probably be fined. Of course they could just decide to fold that operation, especially considering (IANAL, but) the policy doesn't appear fully GDPR-compliant. I doubt that they are making significant profit in Europe anyway.

[1] http://www.wechat.com/mobile/htdocs/en/cookies_policy.html

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by kazen44 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:12PM (#17136514)
GDPR could become a global thing, because it could be used by the EU as a predecent for Free trade agreements. (which most nations in the world are happy to sign).
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by fixermark on Friday May 25, 2018 @02:06PM (#17156375)
It could, but with controversial concepts like "right to be forgotten" baked into the GDPR, I don't assume most nations will necessarily be happy to sign "free" trade that requires them to rewrite history records.
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by crest on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:05PM (#17135800)
How can a US embargo on certain countries disrupt their trade with the rest of the world?
Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by s73v3r_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:24PM (#17136634)
Well, for one, many of these companies, like Facebook, are not US companies. They're headquartered in Dublin, an EU country.

And, you don't have to abide by foreign laws as long as you never intend to go into that country or do business with people in that country. But, as many EU companies are about to find out, they're subject to US laws, most notably those pertaining to sanctions on Iran. So why shouldn't US companies be subject to EU laws?

Re:No one’s ready for GDPR by tw1010 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:46PM (#17138644)
If none of your customers are outside the US, go ahead, feel free to ignore GDPR. When companies are unable or unwilling to discriminate their service by geographical boundaries, the country with the strictest law rules.