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Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by Andrex on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:59PM (#17135736)
This is a good read, but I question this line:

> Video games, at their best, offer everyone an equal chance to overcome the same challenges on an equal playing field. “Pac-Man,” after all, didn’t let you add extra quarters to purchase immunity from the ghosts.

I mean, in a way they did. If you had more quarters to spare in Pac-Man, you'd be more likely to make it further than your cash-strapped compatriot.

But then again arcades peddled these types of "pay to win" mechanics long before the App Store, and so probably aren't the best example to use in an article like this. NES era games would be more appropriate I think.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by Noos on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:23PM (#17137872)
That's not pay per win. Yes, you could spend more quarters and put more time in front of the screen, but in the end it was your own personal skill that determined how far you went in many games. Just putting in money and time alone wasn't enough. The harder games you'd hit the wall anyways; Sinistar or Robotron 2084 are good examples of how you really needed skill in games.

Pay to win means putting more money in to the game will give you a direct advantage no matter your skill level. It might be possible to compensate for it, many times its not. Reddit had a thread where they talked about that, and an example was one person in Black Desert or Archeage killing an entire guild of players.

Edit: the main pay to win aspect in arcade games were continuing and energy or timer systems. Continuing is, but the player's goal always was to reduce the amount of continues by skillful play. Very few games i feel were impossible to do so with.

Timers are hit points counting down to eventually end the game. Gauntlet was the first big game to use it, as was Rampage.Nintendo's playchoice 10 used a literal timer, where once it counted down, the game stopped letting you play. Usually though these weren't considered pay to win...the term we used was "quarter munchers" and many of those games were co-operative so pay to win aspects didn't harm other players.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by notahacker on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:27PM (#17136037)
Yeah, the irony is the article talks about Pay to Win games, which a good percentage of gamers don't bother with at all because you can have very good (arguably much better) experiences with a fixed price, several year old games that run on your ordinary computer, and yet harks back to an era when people did have a choice of pay per play or relatively expensive specialised hardware. No, really the decline of hardware as a proportion of gaming spend isn't bad news for people with a lot of time to play games and no money.

It's similarly lacking in awareness when it advocates one route to levelling playing fields being a model where everybody receives micropayments from any commercial entity that uses their data (interesting in theory) apparently without realising that data regarding people with money is usually a lot more valuable than data on people without it (before we even start to consider other issues like implications for deanonymisation). That's after moaning that Twitch separates people into "haves and have nots" because some people earn considerably more money from their streams than others based mainly on things other than their spending power.

And anyone that thinks "government employed Twitch stars tasked with building communities for the marginalised and estranged" is going to equal things out has never been through a process where government bodies evaluate who to fund...

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by dfxm12 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:07PM (#17135821)
You don't get to enter your initials into the machine based on how far you get. Only your score matters, and your score resets when you continue.

You don't "beat" Pac-Man when you get to the kill screen, you beat Pac-Man when you get a perfect score.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by piker on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:47PM (#17136266)
...and how does one practice to "beat" Pac-Man with a perfect score?
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by TuringTest on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:37PM (#17138567)
Practicing the game is not pay-to-win, is pay-to-practice. It still requires skill to win.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by jandrese on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:26PM (#17136654)
Getting to the kill screen seems like it should count as a victory. Getting your initials on the top of the high score screen counts too, if perhaps only briefly. The idea that you can't say you've won unless you've played a completely perfect game is a mindset for insane people who will never be happy.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by jakelazaroff on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:12PM (#17139323)
I think GP's point was, if every practice run costs a quarter, there's likely a correlation between wealth/resources and practice/skill.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by pasquinelli on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:32AM (#17141837)
that's if you're stuck on the idea of beating a game of skill. if you need that idea, then you have to be able to beat pacman, and so you feed quarters to get to the game ending bug. if you dispense with that idea then you play for your best score, and feeding quarters to get to the kill screen becomes a waste of time.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by Andrex on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:13PM (#17135892)
True! And I forgot that aspect of the scoring system.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by gowld on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:52PM (#17136319)
High score resets whenever the machine is unplugged.

Score isn't the only measure of success in Pac-man or other arcade games.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by pasquinelli on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:37AM (#17141862)
what difference does it make if the high score table is reset? if you got that score you got that score, that's your achievement, the record just commemorates it.

score very much is the measure of success in pacman and its contempiraries. what else is there?

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by kchr on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:01AM (#17144029)
If you consider the high score list as you would a city wall where local graffiti writers put their tags as a territorial guestbook it makes more sense IMO :-)

Sure, you know that you "won" - but there is also something to the idea of bragging about it!

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by lele92n on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:04PM (#17136439)
It’s like a metaphor saying only literal outcomes and shape of the world mean much. Whereas our ephemeral emotions which require us to stay “plugged into” an increasingly demanding cultural tradition despite the diminishing ROI most people are seeing (cause they’re ignoring the literal outcomes and shape for emotional feitishism)
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:28PM (#17136058)
NES-era games juiced the difficulty so you couldn't beat them on rental. Not quite the same but if I were going to pick a "golden age" of relatively not-exploitative gaming it might go from SNES-PS2 or so.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by jandrese on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:43PM (#17136855)
NES era developers knew that many of their customers could only afford a few games a year but also didn't have enough memory on the carts for extremely large games. The only way to prevent kids from blowing through the content in a weekend was to crank the difficulty up or figure out some way to offer endless replayability (ala Tetris).

It's really incredible when you see printed out maps of old NES games just how small the levels were. You could put an entire game in a 4 or 5 page spread in Nintendo Power if you wanted.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:00PM (#17137067)
It was at least in some cases explicitly about rentals. That's why the difficulty was jacked up for US releases -- Nintendo was successful at getting game rentals legally banned in Japan, but not the US.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by jandrese on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:56PM (#17138186)
Weird that the internet opinion is that the Japanese release is the harder one because Americans don't have the patience for super hard games. Examples include Final Fantasy (that simplified the item system) or the "Lost Levels" of Super Mario Brothers.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by MrFoof on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:40PM (#17140277)
Many games, not just the original SMB2.

Rock Man 2 (Mega Man 2 in North America) had one only difficulty in the Japanese release. In North America, Mega Man 2 offered a "Difficult" option, which was the original Japanese difficulty. "Normal" was the default difficulty for the North America release toned things down quite a bit, as Capcom felt the game would be considered too difficult by the North American market.

There's well documented lists of games that were significantly easier for the North American release, with only a few harder for North America.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by annywhey on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:13PM (#17139325)
In fact, the difficulty tuning was usually harder within the first release of the game(regardless of location). So games that saw a US release first were hard there, while games released in Japan first were hard in that version. And since the majority of the NES library derives from Japan-first releases you get the "Japan version is harder" effect.

There are some exceptions to the rule of course, but it usually holds that the later localizations get the more polished product.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:01PM (#17140734)
Games adjusted to be harder for the US can have really punishing levels of difficulty though. Like the US Hard Corps release is excessively hard.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by ppseafield on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:48PM (#17139562)
A counterexample: Resident Evil was actually harder in the US because they removed the auto aim feature, specifically so US game renters would have a hard time beating it. I'm sure there are more examples of both kinds of modifications for the US market.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:59PM (#17138222)
You're not in any danger of finishing Final Fantasy in a few hours. The Lost Levels is not really a very good game.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by bitwize on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:07PM (#17137126)
If that's what Nintendo were trying to do they did a piss-poor job at it. I beat Super Mario World over a single weekend's rental.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by kchr on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:04AM (#17144055)
Ahhh, those were the days. You knew you had 72 hours from the moment you left the store and goddamnit you would spend that time effectively :-)
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:48PM (#17137541)
It didn't happen to every game, but compare, for instance, the US and Japan releases for Contra 3 or Contra: Hard Corps.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by fzzzy on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:10PM (#17140086)
Nintendo hard described the NES era, not the SNES.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:59PM (#17140723)
It happened with sixteen-bit games too.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by mantas on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:20PM (#17136602)
PS1 was the golden era IMO. It was slow enough for good graphics, so gameplay came first. But it was fast enough for rather good physics and AI.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:01PM (#17137082)
I find it hard to go back and play early 3D games. But on the "exploitation" front there is no pay-to-win stuff.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by severine on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:01PM (#17138767)
Yeah, Wipe Out!
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by gowld on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:53PM (#17136326)
Isn't the golden age now, where difficulty is customizable?
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by annabellish on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:20PM (#17136594)
Absolutely not. Difficulty is customisable, but we still live in a world where massive AAA titles lock things which in previous generations were relatively easily attainable behind grinding measured in weeks, not days, with no regard for any difficulty setting you might have, while constantly suggesting both explicitly and by implication that you could skip the grind by just giving them more money.

I think a lot of the indie and AA space is still very good, though.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by kazagistar on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:12PM (#17137168)
The reason the golden age is now is specifically because you have all those options. Just because AAA games exist doesn't invalidate the fact that if you are looking for a specific type of more traditional game experience, you can find it much easier then ever before.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @03:53PM (#17137595)
The "Golden Age" usually refers to when the great works were produced; otherwise we'd always simultaneously be in every golden age that ever occurred (barring the works in question being destroyed), making the term kind of meaningless.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by emodendroket on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:01PM (#17136414)
Well, no, because the axis we're looking at isn't difficulty. And customizable difficult is not a recent idea.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by NeoBasilisk on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:22PM (#17138442)
Difficulty levels have been a thing for over 20 years.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by bambataa on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:10PM (#17136494)
This is slightly off topic, but are modern arcade games more extortionate than they used to be? If you play e.g. Mario Kart you have to keep putting in coins after each race. Maybe if you come first it lets you continue but it seems a total rip off.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by mrguyorama on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:27PM (#17136666)
Atari aimed for a playtime per quarter of 2-3 minutes back in the day
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by bambataa on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:11PM (#17138848)
Wow, maybe not that different then when you account for inflation (though I might be way off). Who were these kids then who had rolls of quarters to throw into machines?
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by nitrogen on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:17AM (#17141504)
Sadly, sometimes they were the kids who stole money and possessions from their siblings to convert to play time.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by brixon on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:46PM (#17136254)
Maybe not Pac-Man, but a lot of the arcade games in the mall from my generation (40yr old) had the "Continue" option and there was no way to win the game on one quarter. It was cheap to play but expensive to win.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by GunwaleHamilton on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:07PM (#17135823)
Remind me, I don't remember if you could continue or if you had to Start again from the beginning when you died in Pac-Man. I know later Arcade Games allowed you to continue but I'm not sure about Pac-Man
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by pwg on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:11PM (#17137762)
I believe the arcade Pac-Man fell into the camp of "when you die, your current game is over".

I believe the "you have 30 seconds to add more money to continue your game from where you just died" came about much later in the arcades than the date of Pac-Man's reign.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by digi_owl on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:03PM (#17135781)
But it also allowed skill with the game to shine by getting further on a single quarter.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by bitwize on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @01:22PM (#17135988)
But skill with the game doesn't come from nowhere. You build skill by playing, and with arcade games, you have to pay to play.

Granted, paying for a chance to test and improve your skill sounds a lot more fair than paying to win.

Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by ryandrake on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:20PM (#17136589)
Yea, I recall fondly playing Mortal Kombat in the arcade for literally hours with one quarter vs. a line of people each putting their own quarters in. As long as you won the match it let the winner continue playing without adding more money. An afternoon of entertainment could be had for <$1.
Re:Digital Capitalism’s War on Leisure by chillingeffect on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:34PM (#17136742)
> If you had more quarters to spare in Pac-Man,

Definitely. And just to dilute simplistic points of view, there were also books published designed to teach the secrets to beating these games in part to spend less money on them. [1] One was even published by Consumer Reports..

[1] http://allincolorforaquarter.blogspot.com/2012/12/golden-age...

But the author has already bought into the frame that playing the game according to implicit rules and achieving progress is the dominant form of the game. This overlooks many other social aspects of the game, such as roles like watching, reviewing, finding secret levels, using games as a social space to meet others, etc.

In short, the author is caught by surprise by the fact that humans will project their social relations into the video game world which they have imagined to be hyper-egalitarian.

In fact, the mere invention of the games was an extension of our social relations into the digital field, so as soon as they appeared it was too late to sustain the author's idealistic viewpoint.

Perhaps the author would have made a stronger point arguing for the emergence of a hypercapitalist congeries of video games which are actually a precession of Baudrillardian simulacra. In the first stage, the dynamics of human experience are projected digitally into a virtual, lithographic field, e.g. instead of battles in space, we use electronic computers to simulate game play

In the second stage, e.g. games on disks and CDs from the 80s-2000, capital was used to design a product which must be recovered through sales of the game software.

In the third stage, it is the simulacra of a game which is sold. It must be so technically dazzling that the capital required to produce it can not be recovered from the sales of the game itself. The game must be reconfigured so that it is not merely a game any more, but an addictive object whose main purpose is no longer leisure, but to recover the hypercapital outlay to reproduce it through gacha.