1. Do you see the bloat even if you don't use post C++11 features but compile using the C++17 standard?
2. Do you think it is mostly the compiler that is causing the bloat alone? Or is it stuff from the standard library header files that some how gets linked in (and are not used or needed by your software)?
Yes, actually I tried using various C++ snippets and even reported that to the GCC compiler team. It happens with simple stuff like std::string and std::vector. The response was something like, that there really seems to be a bloat, but no performance impact and I guess most users outside of embedded don't care too much about the size of the compiled binary.
2. Do you think it is mostly the compiler that is causing the bloat alone? Or is it stuff from the standard library header files that some how gets linked in (and are not used or needed by your software)?
That's actually a very good question I cant give an answer to - meaning I haven't looked specifically into that.
As C++17 came to GCC I played with the compiler explorer and observed this by just switching gcc/clang version and -std flag. Actually, you can try it yourself: https://godbolt.org/
I would love to post my code snippets from back then, but Im not home currently and the time Im back home I guess nobody will care about this anymore :D. Maybe I put it into an article.
The intermediate inline stages greatly expand the code size, until the point level where all the abstraction can be compiled away. I guess that -Os simply settles for a local optimum and gives up inlining early.
Also, static size does not mean anything. The only thing that matter is the dynamic size (i.e. the instructions that are actually fetched at runtime: code that isn't run or run rarely doesn't matter (then again, such code is a prime candidate to be compiled with -Os).
Just turning on C++11 in the compiler brings move to all standard library containers. The header files were not just "somehow" linked in and not used, the additional code was used in many places behind the scene. I haven't done benchmarks on my code, but the general report of those who have is that in exchange for the extra binary size the code runtime was 5% faster. For most people these days that expense is worth it.
The performance of embedded MCU's are continuously rising over the years and that little overhead is buying development speed.
Not to mention smart pointers, templates and constexpr making my life easier.
The only real issue with C++ is, that as soon as you get into serious embedded applications, you have restrictions when it comes to heap usage e.g. in medical devices using the heap is forbidden. So you cant use the STL.
There is a promising embedded STL project, but it's not there yet: https://www.etlcpp.com
https://github.com/electronicarts/EASTL
(In case it wasn't obvious, disclaimer: I work at EA, and frequently do work on EASTL, though I'm not the primary maintainer.)
std::array is in there since C++ 11 and it doesn’t use heap.
And/or you can use STL with custom allocators that work without heap. We did something similar developing for Nintendo Wii console. There was a heap but we didn’t want to use it to avoid memory fragmentation. AFAIR we used two arenas (essentially stacks), one very small for temporary data cleaned up at the start of each frame, and a large one cleaned up when a level is unloaded.
However, I don’t have hands on experience developing firmware for medical devices, so I’m not sure it’ll work for them.
So you can do things many different ways. If you do say "we do this like X, which is industry standard, just like T, U, and V do" it's a simpler argument than "we do this like Y. Lots of people do X, but here is how we have demonstrated Y is better for us...". But this can be fine too, just possibly more work.
Also worth noting (a) there is no industry-wide best practices agreement (b) there is no FDA wide agreement on what should be done (different device types are reviewed by different panels (c) the FDA doesn't understand software development deeply across it's panels, but it is catching up.
It's especially true if you're saying "This new device is just like our previous device, with these few small changes". (I forget what that's called, but you can do a lot less paperwork if that's true.) But if you start doing memory allocations where you never did before, they're probably going to want to apply higher scrutiny to your entire software. That's... painful.
But it is worth pointing out, FDA (or other national body) isn’t doing code reviews. They are mostly interested in process , and how you follow it. The place where this really interacts s is hazard analysis, and then it’s just up to you to demonstrate your checks and balances.
With static memory techniques you can "prove" the system has enough memory to work in all modes, i.e. device consumes 20 readings per second, keeps them in a ring buffer backed by a static fixed array, that buffer is large enough to satisfy processing rate.
Out of curiosity, what is the rationale for not using the heap with medical devices?
So if there is a way to say: we don't have to worry about [class of error X] because we don't ever do Y, that's a straightforward way to sort out those components. If you have a compelling tech reason to do Y, better start thinking about all the controls you'll put on it.
Think about it this way: What's the worse thing that can happen if your code causes an OOM error? If the answer includes things like "somebody dies if it happens at the wrong time", you'll want to be really careful to prove (prove, not just test out) that can't happen.
- Fragmentation.
- Non-deterministic runtime (in the real-time cases).
- Insufficient analysis of worst-case conditions (i.e. you haven't worked out what your worst case RAM usage is, otherwise you would have statically allocated it).
IMO, the worst is the final case as it shows a lack of thoroughness in the design as a whole and brings the rest of the code into suspicion. Fragmentation can be worked around, but not the others.
Is it still possible today to pare down the compiler output like that? I imagine a lot of modern C++ just doesn't work unless everything is enabled.
Check this talk about fitting C++17 on a C64.
CppCon 2016: Jason Turner “Rich Code for Tiny Computers: A Simple Commodore 64 Game in C++17”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBkNBP00wJE
Also be aware that embedded devices like Arduino and Cortex-M (with Mbed OS) do use C++ toolchains.
CppCon 2016: Jason Turner “Rich Code for Tiny Computers: A Simple Commodore 64 Game in C++17”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBkNBP00wJE
Most of the time is either religion against C++ or lack of modern tooling, given that most embedded toolchains are stuck with C90 and C++98.
possibly. but given the how often i've seen c++ users treat c users like idiot savages or heathens that need conversion ("have you heard the good word of our lord and savior, c++?"), i could understand a negative sentiment.
"Although the first edition of K&R described most of the rules that brought C's type structure to its present form, many programs written in the older, more relaxed style persisted, and so did compilers that tolerated it. To encourage people to pay more attention to the official language rules, to detect legal but suspicious constructions, and to help find interface mismatches undetectable with simple mechanisms for separate compilation, Steve Johnson adapted his pcc compiler to produce lint [Johnson 79b], which scanned a set of files and remarked on dubious constructions."
Dennis M. Ritchie -- https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html
I would like the stack underlying my computing needs not to look like a Swiss cheese.
And yes, C++ is also not the ultimate solution for that as it is tainted by its C compatibility.
Now, I'm aware that you can restrict yourself to "almost C" in C++, but no one ever seems to be doing that. A litte str::string here, a tiny std::vector there, so exceptions are already in, so why not go all the way.
Avoiding bloat and performance hits are trivial in comparison to structural and architectural benefits in the modern language.
Rewriting something that already works would be silly of course.
> and size is an important factor you may be reluctant to trade up. Bloat avoidance is not trivial, in my opinion
I don't agree with this in comparison to C. C is still there, but you have destructors and ownership semantics on top of it. Even templates can be used for things like type checking in debug builds.
Nested namespace definitions and structured binding declarations are also nice.
We are using C++ for embedded devices and recognize a steady code bloat with every release since C++11 (especially with C++17) without using any of the new features (with gcc/clang). This is a trust-killer and actually the reason we stay on C++11 for embedded development.