If bitcoin is "beyond blockchain", than what is it? Just a table of transactions in a Real Database™? If yes, whats the point?

You've just layered a very bank-sounding, very-centralized construct on top of your space-age "trustless" decentralized blockchain. How is it at all revolutionary since you've basically gone and re-invented a much shitter version of the credit card and traditional (evil) fiat banking.

> And I dont trust USD like I trust BTC. Historically Fiat currencies are awful.

I feel like bitcoin people live in some kind of alternate reality that I simply don't understand. Is it the fact that they have so much invested in the concept that they lose the ability to think clearly? Is it a cult? A religion?

I'm not sure, but it sure is an interesting phenomenon.

It's applying the formula of the shit book "The Secret" ("if you want it really hard, the universe will give it to you") to getting rich...

In 2020, Bitcoin will inflate slower than most fiat currencies. The culture enforces that this rate will not increase arbitrarily. Storing it in a digital safe you control will prevent seizures.

Are fiat people living in a cult or can they present arguments in good faith?

I can tell. You seem to think Bitcoin is another inflationary currency.

The excitement is that, Donald Trump doesnt have control over Bitcoin. China doesnt have control over bitcoin. No government does. People with computers have control over it. There are 21,000,000 Bitcoin ever ever ever. No amount of awful government can change that.

>How is it at all revolutionary since you've basically gone and re-invented a much shitter version of the credit card and traditional (evil) fiat banking.

Like I said, Bitcoin is rare and digital. I think you are complaining about payment processing companies. I have had an excellent experience using these companies with no fees on instant transactions.

Provably false. Bitcoin has been forked into multiple chains numerous time, creating many more then 21 million tokens. Given that there is no trademark on the term "Bitcoin", some of these forks can rightfully claim themselves to be The True Bitcoin.

In addition, there are thousands of other non-forked blockchains that are nearly identical to bitcoin, save for a few minor configuration changes.

> Bitcoin is rare and digital.

Absolutely false. Bitcoin is digital and infinitely creditable. This has been proven over and over again.

This is absurd. You could say the same for the dollar and the canadian dollar. You seem to think a new currency devalues every other currency.

What I don't understand is how you think your are insulated with bitcoin. If Trump does something so catastrophically stupid that USD is worthless, what will be the effects on the worldwide economy? How will bitcoin insulate you from something like the 07 recession, it won't make finding a job easier. At least the gold peppers can claim there is some value left in gold in a hypothetical nuclear post apocalypse, BTC instantly becomes worthless without widespread internet access. Without network access, what value is in a blockchain?

Obviously you're not 100% protected, but you're more protected from anything that doesn't affect the entire world.

Or do you think that holding dollars exposes you to an Amazon bankruptcy just as much as holding Amazon gift cards?

> BTC instantly becomes worthless without widespread internet access. Without network access, what value is in a blockchain?

Have you looked around at the world you live in? If network access ceases to exist the entire economy will collapse, I don't think Bitcoin is your biggest worry there.

I thought China had over 50% of the mining power

It's already banned in some countries, and many tax it. Evading those laws comes with risks, so many or most people comply. Exchanges end up being forced to hand some data over to the IRS/others. Overall, governments seem to have control over it nearly the same as they have control over the trade of anything else.

Fiat has ushered in an absolutely amazing period of global growth that has made us unbelievably wealthy. But there is inflation, so why not go with the thing that has no history?

Since around 1980, all the "amazing global growth" has largely gone to those who own and hold financial instruments, while those who make and those who serve have just been treading water all this time.

I can't imagine how unbelievably wealthy I would feel if my class's wages had risen commensurate with increases in productivity, but I certainly don't feel all that rich now.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence but the 1980s was the beginning of the "off-shore everything" trend.

Inflation has destroys savings for the masses who keeps cash more than investment. We've seen this a half dozen times in the last 100 years.

The gold standard was one of the worst fiscal policies ever. Its use was directly responsible for the destruction of millions of lives. Arguing to bring it back shows incredible nativity and a severe lack of history.

I suggest you read up on how horrible of an idea the gold standard was before you spout this kind of nonsense.

Can you propose some reading material?

I dont keep most of my bitcoin in coinbase.

The only thing I will say is that I keep my bitcoin in MANY locations and MANY wallets.

my bad

How so? What matters is the price at the time of transaction, no?

I bought BTC at 200, 400, 800, 1200, 3000, 11,000, and 7,000.

I like BTC wayyy better than USD. If I need to spend 2$ at taco bell, I'll just use my bitcoin.

The currency you're using is USD, since that's how Taco Bell set their prices and it's how you're measuring the value of your bitcoins (via the exchange rate).

I've yet to see any business set their prices in bitcoin. Everyone accepting bitcoin payment is setting their prices in fiat currency (e.g. $2), and accepting an equivalent amount of bitcoin (based on market rates); i.e. treating bitcoin as a payment gateway rather than a currency.

It's the same thing.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dollarcostaveraging.asp

This a completely emotional argument, there's no logic behind it, you could also regret spending $2 at Taco Bell instead of on Bitcoin.

Shift card had like a 10$ fee for printing the card, but its free and instant.

The only time I did an on-chain transaction in the last 3 years was moving money to another exchange to buy alt-coins.

I increasingly feel that pro-crypto arguments are mostly motte and bailey. So Bitcoin is better than fiat because it's decentralized and censorship-resistant, with everything forever stored in the blockchain. It's also more convenient and efficient than fiat in daily use - when we discard all the decentralization and anti-censorship guarantees, skip the blockchain and use it as a private-issued, unregulated fiat.

This isn't at all different from the way many people separate their investments and savings accounts from their checking accounts, except that in this case, the investment/savings accounts get "magical crypto guarantees."

This isn't rocket science.

That is an option.

I dont care about 'trust' when I spend 2 dollars at taco bell on my shift card. I dont care about 'trust' when I give my friend 200 dollars with coinbase email.

5 bitcoin? Yeah I'll take that out of coinbase.

But this is a payment platform IMO. I use paypal and venmo too. They dont charge fees and I dont really care about decentralization magic.

So you used a "totally not a bank, but really a bank" bank, eh?

2FA > a piece of paper under my bed.

But also I keep my bitcoin in lots of places, a few bucks in coinbase for free transactions is like keeping cash in my wallet.

It's a matter of opinion. However, the only reason for bitcoin to exist is to avoid banks and payment processors. Hence it's illogical to make heavy use of coinbase/etc. regardless of what opinion you have.

Bitcoin has many downsides (volatility, no recourse, vast energy usage, paranoid wallet security, high fees, long confirmation time, etc.) and one upside (no need to trust processors/banks).

If you think that processors/banks are bad, then you might find that the upside outweighs the downsides, and make many on-chain bitcoin transactions. Yet you shouldn't use coinbase/etc. in this case, since they're a bank/processor, hence you'd be removing the only upside that bitcoin has.

On the other hand, if you don't think that processors/banks are bad, then the upside of bitcoin isn't worth all of the downsides. You might as well use regular currency, with all of its advantages over bitcoin (instant payments, lower fees, lower volatility, recourse, less paranoid security, etc.). In this case there's no need to use coinbase/etc. because there's no need to use bitcoin.

Those intermediaries do serve a role in converting between traditional currencies and cryptocurrencies, but it only makes sense to use them occasionally, e.g. buying a stash of bitcoins and immediately 'withdrawing' them to your private, on-chain-only wallet. If you're regularly converting back and forth, or maintaining a non-zero balance on their systems, you would always be better off doing something else (either sticking to fiat, or sticking to crypto).

Not true. If your purpose is holding inflation-resistant money, payment processors and bitcoin banks may be perfectly ok.