No, it's zipping left immediately when the light turns green and before oncoming traffic has a chance to accelerate.

It sounds similar. I stopped doing it years ago after seeing too many close calls. But I live in an area where other people don't exactly accommodate the behavior.

It sounds like the opposite of that -- letting the left turn car go before both sides move, rather than after both sides finish.

The behaviour you just described is what everyone does in Michigan. The Pittsburgh left sounds friendlier, but more risk prone to people who don't expect it or respect it.

Correct, although the creep and go after the light is also practiced. Main reason for the Pittsburgh left's popularity is that there are a number of roads in and around the city where during rush hour it's otherwise impossible to ever make a left and have no turn lane.

> and have no turn lane.

Urgh, that's something missing from the other comments. Now it makes sense to me.

This happens to me sometimes, my solution is to overshoot by a block, then hook 3 right turns, rather than slow up everyone behind me or pull a daredevil left. I would hope self driving cars would be programmed to follow a strategy like mine while still accommodating daredevils by using cautious acceleration and effective collision avoidance.

In other words, despite the traffic lights not having an official "left turn only" phase, the traffic has naturally created one. I've seen this in China too.

No, what you're describing sounds a hell of a lot safer. (It's also how people make left turns in Vancouver. The fact that it's illegal in Seattle infuriates me to no end.)

The Pittsburgh left sounds like a recipe to get T-boned by an inattentive driver. Pulling into the intersection, and making a left turn when it is safe is a much better alternative.

It is legal to pull into the intersection on green or yellow, and wait until it is clear (often when the light turns red) to turn left in Seattle. It is the correct/legal way to make a left turn. Otherwise you are just going to sit there blocking traffic for multiple cycles during busy times.

That's why you go during the yellow. Cars are stopping at the new red. You then go left before the cars getting the new green start moving.

The oncoming traffic doesn't stop until the light turns red. When the light is yellow, they're actually more likely to _speed up_ in order to "make the light" rather than stop. So when the light inevitably turns red and you're in the middle of the intersection, do you either:

a) Just sit there, in the middle of the intersection, blocking traffic.

b) Attempt to back up, hoping there are no other cars behind you in the left turn lane blocking your path.

c) Continue through the intersection.

Unless the law says "never stop in the intersection in the first place", I can't imagine it enforcing any option other than c.

I've found that Seattle drivers are unusually respectful of amber lights - probably because getting pulled over for abusing it is more common than never.

Interestingly, yellow light laws are different in different states — so in some places people are very respectful of yellow lights.

Most states say it's OK if you enter the intersection on yellow, but a handful (not including WA, but including neighboring OR) require that you clear the intersection before the red appears.

I've sometimes wondered if "entering the intersection" includes entering the crosswalk adjacent to the intersection.

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/57ajjq/til_w...

A family friend crashed into an oncoming car because of this ambiguity. They were waiting to make the turn, thought the other car should stop (because it was yellow going on red). Apparently it even looked like they were slowing down but then sped up at the last minute. Police said both at fault.

> The oncoming traffic doesn't stop until the light turns red.

Wait, why? No new car should enter the intersection when the lights turn to yellow. The yellow light should last long enough for everyone to be able to safely drive off the intersection, in orderly manner.

In the states, there's often a 1-second all red cycle to let the intersection clear, because drivers treat a yellow light as a green that's about to expire. Even with this, I often see 2 or 3 cars enter the intersection after I already have a green signal.

> No new car should enter the intersection when the lights turn to yellow.

Cars will obviously enter the intersection under a yellow. It's why we have a yellow.

Even if everyone wanted to stop for every yellow, at 35 mph with average reaction time, cars will travel a minimum of 100 feet after the yellow phase starts. Some of those cars will enter the intersection.

With a typical 4 second yellow, some drivers don't even choose to stop for the first half of the yellow, of course.

What's illegal? Stopping in an intersection? Or exiting the intersection on red? The light would be red on exiting the intersection unless cars are illegally entering the intersection on yellow when they should be stopping because they weren't speeding and have time to stop.

Entering an intersection on yellow isn’t illegal in Washington, California, Texas, or any state that I am aware of.

Ah, ok, that explains it... It is illegal to enter an intersection on yellow in most of Europe, I think. The yellow light is for driving off of intersection, is what I've been taught. It's only allowed to enter the intersection if you're going really fast and the light turns when you're really close to the intersection, but even then the cops are likely to question you if they see it.

That‘s not the case at all in Germany (most of all because you cannot even see the lights anymore once you entered the intersection since in Germany they are at the beginning of the intersection, not the opposite end). Which European country are you talking about?

In driving school I was taught to generally be ready to brake when approaching a light, but to also then pick a reasonable point of no return (depending on speed, maybe a couple dozen meters before the light) beyond which I would not be braking, no matter what the light does. That way braking should never ever feel anything close to emergency braking you do when there‘s an actual unforeeen obstacle. It should always be smooth.

Also, when making a left turn at an intersection in Germany you drive into the intersection and then you wait for the oncoming traffic to clear. At this point you cannot even see the lights. The only thing that is relevant for you is to wait for oncoming traffic to clear up (or if you obviously see they have stopped since the light has since turned red and have verified optimally by eye contact that you are free to go).

Other traffic from left and right obviously have to wait until you have cleared the intersection even if they have a green light.

It's illegal to enter an intersection if you're unable to immediately leave it. So, if you don't have a clear left turn, you're supposed to sit behind the white line.

Likewise, it's illegal to enter an intersection, going straight, when there isn't enough space in your lane, for the back of your car to clear the intersection. Doesn't stop people, though.

Your first point is not true, at least not where I live. It is legal to enter an intersection to prepare to make a left turn before oncoming traffic has cleared. This very scenario is spelled out in the NYS drivers manual— see the second example under “right of way”. [0]

[0] https://dmv.ny.gov/about-dmv/chapter-5-intersections-and-tur...

At least in Los Angeles, this is not only legal but, in many cases, the only legal way to make a left turn.

It may be legal in LA or NY, but in Washington, it is not legal.

> RCW 46.61.202 says "no driver shall enter an intersection or a marked crosswalk or drive onto any railroad grade crossing unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection, crosswalk, or railroad grade crossing to accommodate the vehicle he or she is operating without obstructing the passage of other vehicles..."

Some people bring out the following passage to be in conflict with it, but I strongly disagree.

> RCW 46.61.190, which says drivers must stop at a marked stop line or "at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the roadway, and after having stopped shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard..."

The 'intersecting roadway' obviously refers to the crossing street, not the lane you want to turn into. Therefore, if you can see oncoming traffic without pulling into the intersection, then crossing past the white line, and waiting there is illegal.

IANAL, but by a plain language reading, entering the intersection to prepare to turn left is not in conflict with the first point, so long as the destination roadway is clear.

The second point is irrelevant, as it pertains to stop/yield intersections, which are not being discussed here.