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Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:33AM (#16912876)
This is why I quit stackoverflow. I'm a top 2% but there became a point where people seemed to care more about the correctness of the information repository than they did about helping people.

It changed from a community vibe into a library and then mods started to stamp on some very good questions that people asked and closed them as duplicates (linking to a slightly different question) or as "too open-ended" or "off-topic". They gave those mods carte-blanche to enforce their way of viewing the site, of data and people and then meta.overflow adopted a hostile culture to shame people who questioned this world-view.

I really like that site but ended up hating it. My 2% rep is also a lie. I got so much from simple answers and so little from much more complicated ones.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by azeirah on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:00AM (#16913121)
I wonder whether instead of closing topics as "off-topic", "duplicate" or "whatever", which can obviously be perceived as negative to someone, might it be a better alternative to do the opposite? Instead of blacklisting "bad" questions as "off-topic", how about whitelisting "good" questions?

If Stackoverflow wants to build this library, let mods and enthusiasts decide whether a question is worth indexing, and let the questions that would otherwise be closed as duplicate or off-topic be as they are. Perhaps replace "duplicate" with "related to indexed question #XXXXXX"?

It would certainly take a while to restructure SO like this, but with enough effort and time, lower-quality questions simply won't show up in searches unless there really isn't a better related question available.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:07AM (#16913178)
This is a really good point - people seem to get hung up about questions being closed, even though "closed as duplicate" is a win since it means somebody already answered your question. If you just called it "promoted to FAQ" or something...
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:08PM (#16914472)
> If you just called it "promoted to FAQ" or something...

In all but one of the cases where I've had questions closed as duplicates, I would have found this actively insulting. That's because all but one of those closures linked to non-duplicates, and in some cases to questions I had already singled out as not applying to my situation.

It's honestly a pretty hard to solve problem, because you're trapped by opposing forces. The sunnier the framing, the less it will sting the people asking the (numerous) duplicate questions - but the more it will irritate people who think (rightly or wrongly) that it's been done in error.

My SO experience seems to have been nonstandard, but it's always looked to me like changing labels and appearances is going to go bust because the rate of actual bad decisions and meanness by power users is too high to build trust.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by DanBC on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:48AM (#16913601)
> even though "closed as duplicate" is a win since it means somebody already answered your question.

That's only a win if the duplicate is real. Sometimes questions are closed when they aren't really duplicates.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:55AM (#16913678)
Yes that is bad. You can vote to reopen if you have enough rep.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:00PM (#16914390)
> if you have enough rep.

This is a substantial part of the fighting over the site, though - there are lengthy guides to picking up enough Stack Overflow rep to render the site usable.

I usually see this dismissed with "just help some people and ask some good questions, you'll be there in no time", but when I talk to friends who are getting a self-taught start with programming, I consistently hear a different story. They're getting questions closed as dupes, either because they aren't experienced enough to recognize duplicate questions with different terms or because mods are squelching their genuinely novel questions. And they're new, so they can't answer hard questions - and the easy ones don't produce rep because they're inevitably closed, removing all the payouts for answering them.

I understand the logic behind the rep gating system, it's not a bad idea. But it's just fuel on the fire when things go wrong, and they go wrong a lot in the form of wrongly closed questions.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:06PM (#16914462)
Yes it is hard to ask good questions, especially when you are just starting with a technology and lack the proper terminology and mental model - which is the phase where you need to ask the most questions!
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:19PM (#16914567)
Yeah - I don't mean to imply this is all Stack Overflow's problem! I think more could be done, but the 'unknown unknowns' situations is really hard to provide support for with anything short of sitting down one-on-one and working through the topic.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by s73v3r_ on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:46PM (#16914790)
I believe the reason people get hung up on that is because, many times, the "duplicate" isn't actually a duplicate.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @11:04AM (#16922132)
Can you provide a few links to examples? I will vote to reopen if appropriate.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by wyldfire on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @12:25PM (#16914028)
They changed "closed" to refer instead to "on hold" and IMO it did not make a big difference.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by borkabrak on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:17AM (#16913277)
Good point. I think there's real value in replacing even just the verbiage of "Closed as duplicate" with something like a "Related Questions" section. It would remove a lot of the hostility, intentional or not, felt by newcomers making their inevitable mistakes, which goes right to the heart of one of the major goals Joel mentioned in the article.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by CodeCube on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @12:02PM (#16913772)
I'd take that a step further, in that adding a link to a related (or even duplicate) question shouldn't _close_ that question, it should be a potentially valid answer to this person's question.

If enough people upvote the link to the originally posted question, or even if it gets selected as the answer, then SO can simply _not index_ this question. But the poster doesn't feel rejected, and can in fact choose to continue engaging in his question in cases where it's subtly different.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by artpepper2 on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:55PM (#16914879)
That's a great point. The community votes on whether an answer is helpful, so why not vote on whether a related question is actually related?
Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @04:31AM (#16919571)
It does work like that to some extent, since closing as a duplicate require a certain number of votes. But this could probably be improved as per the suggestion, as it seems many people have experienced inappropriate "closed as duplicate". It seems to be one of the major complaints in this thread.

Sometimes the duplicate is blatant, but in many case it is really a judgment call. In my experience I more often vote for "reopen" than for "close", so there are definitely different attitudes to what is considered a duplicate.

Alternatively, it could be the decision of the one asking the question. Just as they select the "accepted" answer, they could choose to accept or reject the duplicate as appropriate.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by s73v3r_ on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:49PM (#16914821)
There's already related questions on the side.

Here's something I've never really understood: What is the downside to leaving the question up, even if it is an actual duplicate? Instead of "closing as duplicate", just answer it with a link to what you feel is the question it duplicates. If that works, then the original will score higher on Google, and if it turns out it's not a duplicate, the asker is able to provide more information as to why that answer doesn't work for them.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by cnaeotnh34nh on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @06:15PM (#16917135)
They actually do that, too, at least for some period of time. I've searched for a particular question, had a SO result pop up as a result, then clicked on it to find it has a header that says, "This is a dupe of question xyz" with a link to the original. The dupe is still up and may still have answers. So it seems to me that they already do this.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @11:08AM (#16922173)
They only close for writing answers to the question, the question (and answers written before it was closed) is still up with a link to the duplicate.

The asker can edit the question to provide more information and the question can be nominated for reopening. It only requires 5 votes to reopen, IIRC.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by s73v3r_ on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @12:18PM (#16923038)
But why? What's the point of all those hoops, other than to discourage new users?
Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @12:28PM (#16923169)
Well if the question is a legitimate duplicate then it is clearly a win for everyone, not least the one asking the question, since now you have a link to answers to your problem which have already been written. Which means now your problem is solved.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @08:29PM (#16917852)
I think this is a good idea.

Specifically what I found upsetting its that it stopped being possible to help people with bad English or those that struggled to express themselves. On numerous occasions I'd finally extract meaning from their mis-phrased question, tap out a considered response only to be prevented from posting it because the question was now closed.

That experience was exceptionally frustrating and a downgrade from newsgroups.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by whatshisface on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:54AM (#16913064)
I think the problem comes from a similar place as Wikipedia's: someone who only changes things they understand will, all else being equal, change far fewer things than a megalomaniac with vastly inflated views of the quality of their own actions. Therefore the greatest fraction of all changes will be owed to the megalomaniac.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by chipsambos on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:57AM (#16913091)
There was a post on reddit a few years ago about a Java question posted by Larry Page: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2lyeqc/larry_p...

Seems a lot of people could relate to one of the top comments:

> The same conversation, if it took place on 2014 StackOverflow:

> "Did you try RTFM Larry?"

> "Closed as being similar to <some other question that also covers Java>"

Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:44AM (#16912968)
Don't get hung up about the rep, this mostly depends on how many people your answers are useful for, rather than how hard the question was to answer. I have answered some hard questions, but get 90% of my rep from a single answer which is the first Google hit for a commonly encountered .Net exception.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by pleasecalllater on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:27AM (#16913378)
I'm in the top 3% and I've noticed another thing: it's enough to have 10k points to be in the top 3%. I haven't been answering anything for a couple of years, and I still get something like 200-400 points per week/month - it depends. So I think I will be in the top 1% next year doing absolutely nothing :)
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @08:32PM (#16917865)
Yeah I naturally rise off the basis of a few popular answers. Enjoyably one of these is a rant about the naming of different flavours of the MVC pattern (which I assert as pointless marketing).
Re:Strange and maddening rules by dv_dt on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @03:04PM (#16915594)
Unintentional modeling of wealth inequality...
Re:Strange and maddening rules by jessriedel on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:39AM (#16912935)
> care more about the correctness of the information repository than they did about helping people

Not whether you meant "useful" or "rule-abiding" when you say "correct". Optimizing for the future reader rather than the current asker is explicitly part of SO design.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:51AM (#16913027)
and they haven't succeeded. Try finding something for Angular 5 without getting bogged down in previous Angular stuff or seeing questions about tech choices that are ridiculously out of date because they stopped allowing people to post those questions in roughly 2010.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by jessriedel on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @02:45PM (#16915436)
It seems clear that their efforts to optimize for future readers have had a lot of success. It's a big part of why they are so popular and valuable. But I'd also be the first to agree they are far from perfect. So I'd think you'd want to sharpen or reform the rules they use, rather than uniformly push them in any one direction. And so I wouldn't agree with blanket criticism of the idea of an information repository.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by mycomments2017 on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:03AM (#16913154)
there's a place for freenode/gitter/matrix.org's '#programming' room and there's a place for 'correctness of the information repository' that SO provides
Re:Strange and maddening rules by mcguire on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:51AM (#16913633)
An information repository that is badly out of date with no effort at curation?
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:10AM (#16913207)
you think there is no value in an open question with upsie/downsie on SO? On freenode the answers are very much dependent on the time the question is asked.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by icebraining on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:36AM (#16913478)
Those questions invite lengthy discussion, which SO is totally not optimized for. A software like Reddit (not necessarily Reddit itself) would be more appropriate, in my opinion.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @12:53PM (#16914318)
Personally I don't see how Reddit really differs. They both have up/down they both support markdown. SO doesn't have a frontpage or specific subreddits (although it does have tags).
Re:Strange and maddening rules by icebraining on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:34PM (#16914695)
Reddit allows for long, threaded discussions. On SO you just have Answers, and then those limited comments below. There's no space for back-and-forth.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @08:35PM (#16917881)
That's a fair point but I find SO much better indexed. Now when I want an opinion on tech my options are:

* Ancient SO post

* Whoever is kicking around in freenode

* Marketing fluff pieces

Re:Strange and maddening rules by fjsolwmv on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:22AM (#16913330)
Complaints about SO remind me of the Louis CK bit about WiFi outage on airplanes. "Everything is AMAZING and no one is happy." SO is a miraculous effort that took a mob of people and harnessed the best aspects of their social nature to build the best Q&A site ever seen. But it's a little annoying sometimes to people with Copenhagen morality love to have on it. SO tram knows this of course and they make a lot of UI tricks to be very friendly and gamified. The site was designed by a world class product manager and it really shows. (It's one of the biggest and best Microsoft/ASP/.Net(!) sites on the internet, especially for non-Microsoft content!). The parts where they aren't perfect (like the ego burn of getting a question closed) are highlighted by contrast to the rest of the experience.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:41AM (#16913526)
My annoyance is when a question is closed that I've understood and am answering by someone who hasn't understood it and has poorly marked it. Also the group think of librarians winning without a healthy conversation about it.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by rrauenza on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @12:33PM (#16914103)
There is also a tendency to try to mark something off-topic as quickly as possible... occasionally you see this in the Hot Question feed. A good question was initially voted to be off topic.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by cnaeotnh34nh on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @06:27PM (#16917208)
I saw this once with a question where some kid was asking about something wildly off-topic like how to make friends or meet a girl or something. Tons of people jumped in to answer. It was quickly closed, and rightfully so despite being interesting to the readers of the site, as it has nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Being a hot question doesn't suddenly make it on topic.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by s73v3r_ on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:55PM (#16914877)
That kind of attitude is a recipe for stagnation. Sure, SO was better than everything else when it came out, but there's always room for improvement. And, as it shows, if they don't keep improving, then the quality and usefulness of the site goes down.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by cnaeotnh34nh on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @06:04PM (#16917059)
I'm a top 2% rep user as well and I couldn't agree less.

First, it's not that they "gave those mods carte-blanche to enforce their way of viewing the site." Any user can either vote to close a post if they think it's off-topic, or they can flag to let a mod know it should be closed if they have low-rep. So what you're seeing really is the entire community deciding on what goes on. Furthermore, mods are elected, so you could choose to run as a mod if you want to change it, or you could at least vote and canvas for mods who you think "get it".

Second, I think I've seen enough low-quality posts to understand why the rules are the way they are, and I think they make perfect sense. I personally really like how it works. I agree there are users who are sometimes rude to new users and I think more should be done to address that. However, I don't think the rules should be changed. I think the user interface could make it easier to understand the rules.

(BTW, the rules on this particular forum are hilariously anti-new-user. You can't use all caps to emphasize a word? That's a fairly well agreed-upon standard on literally ever other site in the world, but new users are shouted down when they dare do something like that here.)

Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @08:37PM (#16917890)
at the time where the mods began to gain power there was a groupthink, a culture and no election since has been able to shift that default. I don't like how the rules work but because I don't share the groupthink nobody cares. IIRC Whenever I tried to express these views on meta I got downvoted because "people are just blowing off steam, its a different culture here from SO".

It was ugly, I hated it. It felt like I was 13 years old again.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by sametmax on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @06:14PM (#16917121)
Same here. I stopped contributing years ago because my stellar answers were completly rewritten by the community for stylistic purpose, not content or typo. I didn't recognize my work anymore.

But i still get so much rep every day, passively. SO still sends me the top user goodies so i have mugs, tees, notebooks, and even jars of peanut butter.

I still go regularly to SO to read answers and i consider the site as a success, an invaluable knowledge base. I love what it does for me as a consummer, but it's unfriendly as a producer. And unfair. I should not have this rep.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by Quarrelsome on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @08:33PM (#16917871)
They took all the joy out of my character too. First it was the swearwords because of corporate firewall, then it was the cutesy language, then the slang, the capitalisation and at that point I no longer existed as a person anymore.
Re:Strange and maddening rules by GuacheSuedeHN on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:12PM (#16918392)
Sounds like Dementia
Re:Strange and maddening rules by dfsegoat on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @01:11PM (#16914497)
Top 5% here. And yeah, I have not participated for the very same reasons:

I simply do not have time to ensure my responses are in "tight enough" shape to stand up to what is quite honestly overzealous moderation for the pure sake of moderation.

TLDR: The community focus on the "meta" aspects of SO: How we ask questions, Answer etc - has killed it for me.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by olavk on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @11:13AM (#16922225)
Have you experienced that your answers are removed by mods because they does not live up to standards? This is only supposed to happen if the answer is outright spam or offensive or totally unhelpful. Otherwise they are just downvoted.

Can you provide a link to an answer by you which was unjustly moderated? I can vote to re-open it.

Re:Strange and maddening rules by amouat on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:01AM (#16913128)
This almost exactly mirrors my experience. I really hate when questions get closed.

Fixing it would take such a change in direction and leadership that it looks unlikely to happen. It seems such a shame.