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Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by fhood on Friday April 06, 2018 @03:34PM (#16776623)
Parts are KEY!!!

Crucial Items.

- A real soldering station.

- Solder

- ALL THE RESISTORS

- ALL THE WIRES (Solid core is really handy for mocking with breadboards

- A good multimeter

- A good power supply

- Breadboards

- Shrink tube

I think that covers the main things. Also nice to have are

- Heat gun

- fume hood (this is overkill for a hobbyist probably)

- Oscilloscope (I hear they are getting nearly affordable)

- Crimps (molex)

- A real crimping tool (Not pliers. One of the ratcheting ones.)

- All the other stuff I forgot about.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Ologn on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:09PM (#16777465)
For those low on cash, or who want to dive in a little before seeing what soldering station, multimeter, power supply, oscilloscope etc. they want...

First buy a breadboard (or more than one). Buy the resistors and wires you need in the near future. You'll need a crimper pretty soon to cut the wires.

A good power supply is nice, but you can make due with a battery holder and battery at first, say, a 9 volt.

Look at some simple projects you can build, and get the capacitors, LEDs, inductors etc. necessary to build them.

When you want to start soldering things together, get a soldering station, solder and stripboards. Also get solder flux . Soldering is much less of a pain when you have flux, depending on what you are doing.

As the comment section here attests - a soldering gun is hot. Solder is hot. You have to be careful.

Digikey.com and Mouser.com have many, many electronic parts. Adafruit.com has a lot of cool projects and guides. In fact, I would recommend you watch some Adafruit videos, read some of their guides etc.

After you learn some of the basics, you can take a step up and get an Arduino and muck with that.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by kevhito on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:51PM (#16777782)
Digikey can be intimidating. The interface is kind of clunky, and for a beginner (like me!) it's overkill when you just want a couple of 10uF capacitors but get 60,000 hits for every variation of exotic capacitor ever made, and pricing for units of 1000s.

I find jameco.com very friendly for a beginner. Prices are about the same as elsewhere, shipping is fine, selection is fine for a beginner, and usually it's usually pretty easy to narrow the search results to just a few parts that have fairly clear differences. They have a pretty nice email newsletter too, essentially the only newsletter I allow through my spam filters, and the only one I've ever clicked on non-accidentally. The regularly feature hobby projects on their front page, from premade kits to more advanced stuff.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by spookthesunset on Friday April 06, 2018 @03:52PM (#16776785)
I can't emphasize the following enough:

> A real soldering station > Solder

Get a good, name brand soldering station. Yes it will cost a few hundred dollars, but it will make a huge difference in your work. The cheap-o $15 soldering irons all produce horrible results and will shatter your confidence...

Get good, very thin solder. It will be expensive ($40) but will last forever and if paired with a legit soldering iron, will make a huge impact in your abilities.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by silasb on Friday April 06, 2018 @04:21PM (#16777025)
I've looked around for a good soldering station and the best thing that I could find for the price/performance is the TS100. All the other budget (sub $100) didn't have a direct heating element. In total, I probably spent about $100 to get a stand and other things needed for soldering.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by jeff_vader on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:40PM (#16777691)
I'd second the TS100. It's ~$40 (given you can find a power supply for free, laptop bricks work fine. I'm using mini photo printer power supply which I found on the street + $1 plug + $3 worth of heat resistant silicone cable).

Warms up in seconds, open source and customizable firmware, takes very little space (kind of important to me since I don't have a dedicated shed/garage for the hobby). What's not to love about it for a beginner?

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by stigi on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:49PM (#16782132)
Honest question: Why does a soldering iron need a firmware? Isn't it just enough to set a temperature? What other features are there?
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by gh02t on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:56PM (#16783937)
Apart from reading the buttons that control the device and writing the display, a digital iron needs firmware to control the feedback loop that maintains the temperature. Digital irons generally have PID based temperature regulation, unlike the crappy analog ones that have open loop systems (some analog irons have temperature regulation, e.g. Weller's old magnetic tips, but the crappy $5 irons do not). This requires a controller to supervise, but also means the iron heats up much faster and maintains that temperature while soldering.

Other features like a temperature graph or adjusting calibration and control parameters are handy additions when you have a nice display like in the TS100. Realistically though, people aren't really writing their own TS100 firmware with the exception of a few tinkerers. What it comes with is good enough.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by kc3 on Thursday April 12, 2018 @02:54PM (#16823828)
Can you say where you can find a TS100 for ~$40? The cheapest I'm seeing is $50-55. Also, are there different versions you need to worry about or are they all the same? I assume you only want a "MINI TS100" vs. some of the other knock off brands.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by cerebellum42 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @06:44AM (#16785524)
I use a Weller W61C (80-90€), which is a soldering iron (not station) that regulates its temparature using magnetic tips. Bit of an oddball, but it works fine even for soldering most SMD stuff, and it's just delightfully simple. Just plug it in and start soldering. Takes up basically no space too, since it's just a soldering iron with no station.

For really fiddly SMD items I have a cheap hot air rework station, but I don't need it very often - mostly when I have to desolder something SMD or solder on an IC with a thermal pad on the bottom.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by pmorici on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:33PM (#16779092)
why bother with that when you can get a name brand adjustable temp iron for ~$100?
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by schwarze_pest on Monday April 09, 2018 @12:53PM (#16794709)
Because there are none. Please show me a name brand direct heating element soldering station for $100. I would like to buy one.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Viker on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:23AM (#16779916)
I would actualy argue that the "MINI" TS100 is a name brand. Build Quality is Great. Preformance is on par with Hakko and Weller.

Also they have other great products.

The MINI Nano DSO203 is a great 4 Channel Digital Oscilloscope for around 100 USD... Also the Mini ES 121 is a piece of art screw driver :)

So yehh... I say it is a name brand ! And the Brand is "Mini"

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by jacquesm on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:56PM (#16787292)
I could not recommend the DSO203 in good conscience, it has almost no isolation of the input channels which makes it downright dangerous.

It's nice if you only do audio or low voltage stuff but the first time you're going to point your probe at something a bit more beefy and you will let the magic smoke out (good case) or worse.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by taneq on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:42AM (#16779396)
I have a $99 100w Duratech one and it's perfectly adequate, no different from the $400+ Weller ones I've used in the past.

If you're just doing a bit of soldering as a hobby, though, get leaded solder. It works so much better than the modern unleaded stuff. Just don't breathe the smoke.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by lsc on Sunday April 08, 2018 @12:05AM (#16784550)
>If you're just doing a bit of soldering as a hobby, though, get leaded solder. It works so much better than the modern unleaded stuff. Just don't breathe the smoke.

That is personally not the tradeoff I'd make.

Lead is a special kind of poison in that it makes you stupid before it kills you: This is especially true of children, but I don't want any of it on my adult self, either.

Note, you can also buy lead-free 'low temperature' solder, which has a lot of the same properties of lead solder, though it's more expensive.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by cerebellum42 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @06:48AM (#16785535)
As far as I know, many lead free solders produce more toxic smoke than leaded solder because they contain different types of flux. When soldering the leaded stuff, the lead in it doesn't get evaporated anyways. The smoke produced during soldering is mostly evaporated flux.

"don't breathe the smoke" is just generally good advice, and it definitely doesn't become less applicable if you use lead free solder.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by lsc on Sunday April 08, 2018 @06:16PM (#16788805)
I need citation on this idea that flux is just as toxic as lead.

Being a technician, I read the MSDS:

https://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/msds/01%20English%20Ca...

vs:

https://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/msds/01%20English%20Ca...

I mean, I ain't saying you should lick either one... and yeah, I don't know how much if any lead is released into the air during normal operation, but lead is pretty seriously toxic to humans, and avoiding touching the lead as I'm using it sounds kinda difficult. The flux? yeah, that isn't any good for you either, but I don't think it's in the same category as lead when it comes to toxicity.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by taneq on Sunday April 08, 2018 @08:33PM (#16789383)
Agreed on not licking either! I haven't been able to find anything conclusive saying how much lead you would get in the air when soldering, but the MSDS you linked says:

> Soft soldering temperatures (<450 °C) are generally too low to generate significant amounts of metal vapors, however, metal oxide fumes/dust or flux decomposition fumes can occur.

> RECOMMENDATION:

> For frequent or prolonged soldering processes, use of a local exhaust system to avoid exposure to thermal decomposition products. For example, use fume cabinet, a hood on a flexible arm, or tip-mounted fume extraction system on the soldering iron.

So if you're only occasionally soldering up a circuit board, you stay well ventilated, and you keep the solder temperature below 450°C (my soldering iron is usually set around 280°C - 300°C) then the risk seems pretty negligible. If you take up circuit board fabrication as a career then obviously you'd take it much more seriously. I should still give unleaded solder another shot, though - maybe it's improved since last time I tried it.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by lsc on Monday April 09, 2018 @12:36AM (#16790409)
>So if you're only occasionally soldering up a circuit board, you stay well ventilated, and you keep the solder temperature below 450°C (my soldering iron is usually set around 280°C - 300°C) then the risk seems pretty negligible.

I think the danger is in touching the lead directly; it's a soft metal and comes off on your hands to a certain extent, and my understanding is that some of the dross can end up as lead dust.

According to the NIOSH, just washing with soap is often not effective for removing lead from your hands,

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/safe.html

>I should still give unleaded solder another shot, though - maybe it's improved since last time I tried it.

I'm starting to look into different formulations; I'd start with the SAC305 formulation. It's like 3.5% silver and slightly more expensive, but still cheap. and widely available.

Not that I'm any good at soldering myself.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by fhood on Friday April 06, 2018 @03:53PM (#16776800)
I don't think you even need to spend a few hundred. ~100 will pretty much do the trick.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by archgoon on Friday April 06, 2018 @04:21PM (#16777026)
> name brand soldering station

What's a good name brand for soldering irons?

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Kelbit on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:07PM (#16777450)
Get either a Hakko FX888D or a Weller WES51. I personally prefer the Hakko, but both are excellent stations that cost under $150 which will serve you for years if you take care of them.

A note - soldering stations usually come with a cheap conical tip as a starter tip. Pay an extra $20 or so to buy two chisel tips: a tiny one for fine work, and a big one for larger work. The flat surface allows you to apply more heat to the joint. Take care of your tips (ie: keep them tinned, don't leave the iron on too hot, and don't scrub too hard with the brass sponge) and the tips should last a few years without trouble.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by mikro2nd on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:51AM (#16780506)
A thing to say in Weller's favour: They stock parts forever. My Weller station is somthing like 35 years old, now, still works perfectly. But someone damaged the sleeve that holds the tips in place. No problem, for a modest cost I could still buy a replacement, even though that particular part no longer fits any contemporary model of iron Weller sells. Kudos to them!
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Gibbon1 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:07AM (#16779880)
The WES51 as a solid soldering iron. You can get ones with a display readout but it's less useful than you might think. Most of the time you just set the temp and then switch tips if you need more or less heat transfer. Need to solder something large or stubborn? Using a phat chisel tip is better than upping the temp. Too hot and the rosin quickly oxidizes and turns to varnish, which prevents the solder from wetting.

Also tips, get a hooked tip, about 80% of the time it'll do the job.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:01PM (#16777852)
YiHUA (or other genetic Chinese brand) 936B clones are plenty cheap (less than $30 shipped IIRC) and are actually quite good.

Yes, the Hakko's are really nice and quality, but the Chinese clones are honestly 'good enough' for many people. They're workhorse machines that see tons of use in their native market.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by dazhbog on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:08PM (#16778280)
I recommend the TS100 (<$100 budget) and JBC ($300-$500 budget). After getting a decent soldering iron I never looked back. Yes its expensive, but so are the parts you destroy with the crappy $30 irons, or the frustration of soldering big copper pads and the tip cooling down in the middle of the process.

Regarding the JBC, after the initial investment, various the tips (chinese clones ~$5 or even originals ~$25) add so much incremental value to the soldering iron base for such a little extra cost.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by dirktheman on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:37PM (#16777671)
Hakko and Weller are a solid choice, but I purchased a programmable TS100 last year and haven't looked back since. I solder a lot on drones and it's just delightful to work with: so light, quick to heat, it has an OLED screen built in, changeable tips and it's programmable. All that for under $50 there's nothing that I would recommend more.

If you're soldering for a living there are probably better suited soldering stations, but if you're just starting out: get this one.

Also: don't skimp on tin. Good quality soldering tin makes a huge difference!

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by NegativeLatency on Friday April 06, 2018 @04:34PM (#16777142)
Hakko
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by coryrc on Friday April 06, 2018 @04:33PM (#16777138)
Weller. Though I have a Aoyue hot air station and it is great.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by ninjakeyboard on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:08PM (#16777460)
I have a chinese hakko clone I got for $120 - it's good enough for my use.

Get a small airfilter/fan if you're going to solder a lot.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by ninjakeyboard on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:07PM (#16777452)
+1 I was using thicker solder for a while and it was a mess. Getting thinner 60/40 flux code made a HUGE difference in my ability to build boards.

It doesn't have to be super thin but thinner is 100% better than thicker.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by crtlaltdel on Friday April 06, 2018 @04:21PM (#16777028)
buy a weller and use appropriately sized solder for the application (very thin solder sucks really bad if you are doing something like throughhole or larger parts...you will have to apply the heat longer to apply enough solder)
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by mindslight on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:58PM (#16778214)
IMHO thin solder is also annoying on larger joints due to less of a flux core.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Doxin on Tuesday April 10, 2018 @04:54AM (#16799982)
or get a hakko clone from aliexpress. half the price and just as good in my experience.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by cr0sh on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:06PM (#16777894)
> The cheap-o $15 soldering irons all produce horrible results and will shatter your confidence...

I would make the opposite argument that if you can get great results from a cheap-o soldering iron, your confidence and ability will soar thereafter.

Recall that, back in the really early days, soldering irons were large affairs, consisting of a large block of copper heated via a gasoline or kerosene torch, with a large wood handle and a steel shaft:

https://www.stevenjohnson.com/soldering/pics/old-reliable.jp...

Electrical ones weren't much better:

https://www.stevenjohnson.com/soldering/pics/ge-1911.jpg

Now granted, connections were mostly "free-air" and not PCB based or similar. Also, some of those irons were meant for soldering sheet metal, not really electronics or electrical work - but that's what people had at the time...

When I learned to solder thru-hole electronics, I learned with what could be called a "cheap-o" soldering iron; something like this (maybe not as nice looking):

https://www.circuitspecialists.com/content/image/104526/600/...

I still have it, and still use it occasionally. It takes "forever" to heat up (about 10-15 minutes), and the tip looks like hell. But for thru-hole construction, it works great. Once you know how to use it, you can solder like a champ.

Would I use it for SMT rework? No. Basically it's virtually worthless for anything with less than 0.1" pitch, unless you're removing parts and just need to dump a lot of heat in a small area.

The key to successful soldering is knowing how to control and place the heat where you need it, and flowing the solder into the joint properly. Most make the mistake of not tinning their iron or the part leads, then trying to flow the solder using the tip of the iron, where all it does is stick the iron tip. Instead, you have to heat the component's lead(s), and flow the solder using the heat on the lead(s). Tinning both the iron and the leads helps with this as well. Flux can also help, but if you use a decent flux-core solder (preferably 63/37 ratio tin-lead), flux should rarely be needed. A paste flux is useful though for cleaning the tip of the iron, especially when shutting down for the day.

It's kinda like arc welding. Sure, MIG can be easy to learn. But if you really want to understand, start with rod (stick) first. Yeah, you'll stick the rod continuously, cussing a storm up at first. But after a while, you'll develop the knack of keeping that weld pool just right and moving the rod while feeding it in, without sticking. Once you've done that, MIG is nothing...

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by Gibbon1 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:11AM (#16779889)
> I would make the opposite argument that if you can get great results from a cheap-o soldering iron, your confidence and ability will soar thereafter.

I tend to disagree, when you're learning is not the time to be fighting your tools.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by OrganicMSG on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:07AM (#16779998)
When learning, I tend to buy something cheap I can destroy, knowing I'll be fighting it. Then I buy something expensive and everything is lovely.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by stingrae on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:03PM (#16777419)
I would add a logic analyzer before oscilloscope. You can get good ones for pretty cheap now. https://www.saleae.com/ It is so nice to be able to see what is actually going on when debugging interfaces.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by keithnz on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:39PM (#16778118)
for learning electronics? why? I'd say an oscilloscope way before a logic analyzer as it allows you to see what circuits are doing. Learning what analog circuits are doing is much more useful for learning than seeing digital signalling.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by stingrae on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:55PM (#16778197)
I think most people getting into electronics won't be doing analog designs. They'll probably be messing around with various sensor devkits (sparkfun, adafruit, etc.) and Arduinos/RaspberryPis/ESP8266. With these you'll be messing around with primarily I2C and SPI which is why a cheap logic analyzer is cool also they are much cheaper than an oscilloscope and some have some analog functionality.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by tzs on Friday April 06, 2018 @11:57PM (#16779294)
> With these you'll be messing around with primarily I2C and SPI

On the other hand, if you get the right cheap oscilloscope, such as a Rigol 1054z, which goes for $350 [1] and add the $180 "serial bus analysis" option, the 'scope will know how to trigger on and decode I2C, SPI, RS232 protocols.

If you don't mind using cracks, you can enable the serial bus analysis option for free, and also double the memory and the bandwidth.

Rigol's response to the crack is interesting. The cracks work because they used a key length for a cryptographic key in their firmware that is short enough to fairly easily brute force. It's hard to see how this could be accidental. Further suggesting that it is not accidental is the fact that they could have easily fixed this once people figured it out, but they have not.

That has led to speculation that they purposefully did this, so that hobbyists could easily crack the thing and get all the features.

Professional users could also crack it, but they would be reluctant to do so, because of potential liability issues. If you are a pro, and you design something the ends up used in a system that causes harm, and it comes out you were using hacked test equipment, the plaintiff's lawyers will be all over that.

If that is the case, it was an excellent strategy. Over on /r/electronics or /r/AskElectronics, you ask for a 'scope recommendation as a hobbyist or student, and almost all the responses will say get the DS1054z and crack it.

[1] https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscop...

[2] https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/SA-DS1000Z/Options/

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by keithnz on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:17PM (#16778636)
maybe, but even with those, unless it's because you really want to look at I2C / SPI, mostly that just works.

I'm not sure what people mean when they say they want to learn electronics, whether they are talking about getting a micro based kit and hooking things up to it and programming it or whether they want to understand circuits and components and how they work. If it's the latter, then go with a scope.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by dazhbog on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:12PM (#16778294)
True, it's good to see the scope while poking around. Also scopes can do higher voltages than salaes' analyzers. But to their defense, the newer analog + digital analysers are really decent for $200.

Annnd they doubled their prices, oscilloscope it is.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by tazard on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:18PM (#16779054)
Why not both? I somewhat recently purchased the EspoTek Labrador. It's both and a lot more for roughly $30. Of course it's nowhere near as good as single purpose/professional grade equipment, but for learning it's a great device.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by taneq on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:44AM (#16779407)
Depends what you're doing, but maybe yeah if it's just digital stuff. 10x faster to trace issues using a logic analyzer than looking at 1 or 2 signals at a time.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by chrsstrm on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:13PM (#16778857)
The last time I looked into power supplies they were somewhat cost prohibitive for my twice a year hardware project habit. Have things changed? Are there some good bang for your buck supplies that can be had for a couple hundred bucks or so?
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by smoyer on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:19PM (#16778878)
I've got dozens of P/S from old computers that put out plenty of 5VDC as well as +/-12VDC. One good bench supply should be enough these days.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by chrsstrm on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:35PM (#16778936)
I was referring to a bench supply, although maybe I should have looked before asking. The number of DC bench supplies available in the $100 range is huge. This seems like a big price shift over the past couple years.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by smoyer on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:20PM (#16778882)
Add an anti-static mat and wrist strap to that list!
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by auvrw on Sunday April 08, 2018 @02:32AM (#16784924)
i suggest (as someone who still knows nothing about electronics) that oscilloscopes are a "must have." cathode-ray-tube style from ebay are more affordable.

also, Horowitz and Hill, to echo what i suppose is mentioned elsewhere.

Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by jacquesm on Sunday April 08, 2018 @01:33PM (#16787176)
You can pick up good scopes from army surplus. That's how I got my Tek.
Re:Ask HN: How to self-learn electronics? by ThatPlayer on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:52PM (#16778791)
I found my set of Engineer PA-09 crimp pliers does a better job than one of the cheap ratcheting crimping tools. Got them to do the smaller JST crimps, but they do Dupont pretty well too.