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Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by hyperpallium on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:49AM (#16752305)
So Moore's Law really is dead this time. And TPU's are only faster than GPU's through lower precision.

Will compute at least keep getting cheaper, perhaps through economies of scale?

Is Kurzweil's magical next information technology, to carry on the exponential, anywhere in sight?

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by nootropicat on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:03AM (#16752629)
Imagine asics for everything. I mean everything, like implementing a javascript engine directly. The energy efficiency could go up 2-3 orders of magnitude (looking at the difference in bitcoin mining between gpus and asics).

Old gaming consoles had cartridges (with memory); I can imagine a future in which complex software is transported in the same manner, except cartridges contain specialized asics. Or perhaps a step forward - a chip making device in every home, an equivalent of sorts of burning music to cd.

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by _chris_ on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:25AM (#16752726)
I assume you meant to reference this, but just to make it clear, those old gaming console cartridges sometimes DID have special chips in them. Much to the horror of emulator writers a decade later, hehe.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_NES_enhancement_...

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by Tobba_ on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @05:12AM (#16753195)
Personally I'd predict the opposite (and current) pattern, creating generic chips which can replace many ASICs / less generic chips. If you can produce a chip which can replace 10 other low/medium-volume designs, economical scaling will win out as long as you're not adding too much overhead. This has been driving FPGAs forward for quite some time, although they're inherently pretty inefficient in terms of die size. Plus, it also provides some logistical advantages in terms of supply chain fragility.

See also: how ridiculously cheap microcontrollers have gotten, and the current messy DRAM pricing (high-capacity chips used in phones sometimes ending up cheaper than low-performance/capacity chips).

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by majewsky on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @04:45AM (#16753085)
> Old gaming consoles had cartridges (with memory); I can imagine a future in which complex software is transported in the same manner, except cartridges contain specialized asics.

I think if that scenario happens, the user won't notice because those ASICs will be deployed in "the cloud".

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by iainmerrick on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:13AM (#16752669)
I mean everything, like implementing a javascript engine directly.

In that case, rather than a Javascript engine, wouldn't you have an ASIC for the script itself?

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by yjftsjthsd-h on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:18AM (#16754000)
You wouldn't want a new chip per website. Maybe hardware handling of a standard library, though.
Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by AstralStorm on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @12:10PM (#16756096)
Or even just of the expensive operations like synchronization, context switches, DMA to cache from network interface...

Wait. We have most of that already. :)

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by hyperpallium on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @04:04AM (#16752919)
Energy efficiency is important (in a server/bitminer and in mobile), but do you have figures for (1) performance; (2) cost?

Custom asics would be expensive now, but perhaps... exponential... cost decrease with sufficient demand. A related approach is programmable asics. I've heard this was researched decades ago, but (I presume), silicon was so cheap, so to speak, it wasn't worth it then.

Today, with "peak silicon", perhaps all these discarded tailings will be picked over. To mix mining metaphors.

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by nootropicat on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @04:48AM (#16753096)
The only relevant figures I know of are from mining bitcoin. [0].

>A related approach is programmable asics. I've heard this was researched decades ago

What do you mean, if not fpgas?

[0] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Non-specialized_hardware_comparis...

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by hyperpallium on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @06:02AM (#16753378)
thanks.

wait, we're looking at 18,000,000 Mhash/s vs 2568 Mhash/s Like... 4 orders of magnitude?

And, 11,000 Mhash/J vs 3 Mhash/J, over 3 ordera of mag, just like you said.

yah, fpgas

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by tim333 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:33PM (#16756971)
Nvidia is cracking along. "Nvidia’s GPUs today are 25 times faster than five years ago. If they were advancing according to Moore’s law, he said, they only would have increased their speed by a factor of 10." https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/computing/har...

I find it interesting that they are crossing the levels proposed for human equivalence around now depending on how you figure it - Moravec figured about 100 terraflops and you can now get "118.5 teraflops tensor-based deep learning performance" from "The Quadro GV100 is available now on nvidia.com for $8,900" https://www.hpcwire.com/2018/03/27/nvidia-brings-the-power-o... https://www.jetpress.org/volume1/moravec.htm

Just need a bit of software.

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by Dylan16807 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @02:05PM (#16757299)
Any improvement like that is from the GPU being given different kinds of circuits entirely. The raw performance difference is not very impressive. In late 2012 you'd get about 8 gigaflops per dollar. Late 2017 gets you almost double that. They're being used somewhat more effectively, but a normal non-neural-net benchmark shows a total performance improvement of... 3x.

They're doing better than CPUs but they're still falling behind Moore's law.

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by marcofatica on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @11:07PM (#16761466)
> a normal non-neural-net benchmark shows a total performance improvement of... 3x

because they aren't intended to run non-neural-net workloads. you don't judge a dishwasher by it's ability to wash your clothes, do you?

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by Dylan16807 on Thursday April 05, 2018 @01:46AM (#16762140)
When you're judging whether Moore's law is dead, you need to separate out the improvements from changing the FPU layout and the improvements from lithography. And since the consumer chips don't dedicate a lot of space to neural net units, they're the best baseline.

It's cool that they made some neural net things go hugely faster. But they could make the same fundamental chip on 6-year-old foundries, only slower by a factor of 2 or 3. That really impressive number has nothing to do with Moore's law.

Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by nthompson on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @04:08AM (#16752932)
At APS March Meeting in LA, there were groups fabricating Josephson junctions. They appeared to be succeeding at ~15mK and individual logic gates, not ICs. I got the impression that their field was advancing steadily, but there was no excitement in their section, unlike anything with buzzwords like "machine learning", or "topological".
Re:Fifty or Sixty Years of Processor Development for This? by tzahola on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:19AM (#16752693)
Terahertz graphene CPUs!