News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by cornholio on Sunday April 01, 2018 @04:17PM (#16730212)
There is some truth in the slides but it's well mixed with falsehoods and misunderstandings.

* Distributed consensus schemes are not useful only for monetary applications. When they are used as such, there exist mechanisms to commit to a certain fiat price and minimize market exposure to the point where transactions are almost free, in fiat terms.

* The disbursement of tokens and the distributed consensus rewards do not need to be tied together like in Bitcoin. A premined token like Stellar can offer very strong security guarantees without needing mining pools (but of course, any kind of imaginable database is vulnerable to majority attacks, so that means nothing by itself)

* The limited block capacity is a Bitcoin-specific problem that incidentally motivated interesting results in off-chain transactions (Lightning).

* The sorry state of the distributed financial markets says nothing about the technology and more about human greed and the slow capacity of regulators to adapt; critically, smart contracts and distributed algorithms enable control mechanism and hard guarantees that have no old world equivalent, they can eliminate counterparty risks, guarantee solvency and fair arbitration etc.

That being said, 95% of the times the word "blockcahin" is uttered these days, what follows is most likely bullshit.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 01, 2018 @04:36PM (#16730300)
> smart contracts and distributed algorithms enable control mechanism and hard guarantees that have no old world equivalent, they can eliminate counterparty risks, guarantee solvency and fair arbitration etc.

The required nexus between the blockchain and the tangible and legal worlds means every limitation that exists today will exist for a "smart contract". It's the same plumbing with a paint job.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by as300 on Sunday April 01, 2018 @06:42PM (#16730943)
I'm sort of thinking out loud here, but the nexus will have to consist of third-party auditors who operate based on reputation.

Right now, we have the government operating as both the "miners" and the auditors.

A middle-ground, then, might be one in which there is a general-purpose public blockchain where the government takes the role of the trusted third-party on-chain, thereby lowering the overall societal costs of things like unfulfilled contracts while still ensuring that my oil-reserves are what I say they are.

From the government's perspective I see this as desirable but falling prey to the principal-agent problem. We'd need virtually no civil-court judges or attorneys to prosecute white-collar crime anymore. It'd lower costs, but in doing so unemploy many of the people in the system.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jayd16 on Sunday April 01, 2018 @08:33PM (#16731396)
This is called the Federal Reserve Bank and it is indeed separate from the tax and fraud portions of the federal government in the US.

But the rest of your post is pretty silly. How does a secure digital exchange protect against fraud? It doesn't.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by as300 on Monday April 02, 2018 @03:12AM (#16732878)
Fraud can occur when a party lies about assets it owns when entering into an agreement, which would be prevented if you had to present proof of ownership for any asset you claim to own? Most ponzi schemes would never happen.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jayd16 on Monday April 02, 2018 @03:31PM (#16738346)
You can own something, accept payment for it, and never actually relinquish ownership. Besides, the blockchain is only proof of ownership of things on the chain. Real world things are not covered at all.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by hndamien on Monday April 02, 2018 @09:43PM (#16741222)
Digital rights are real words things though. Other forms of rights that are not currently digital could be made digital too.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by joe_the_user on Sunday April 01, 2018 @09:33PM (#16731620)
The required nexus between the blockchain and the tangible and legal worlds means every limitation that exists today will exist for a "smart contract". It's the same plumbing with a paint job.

It's that plus a whole new crop of perverse incentives which arise with any "smart contract". Especially, no smart control can reach out to the "real world" and get data, more less facts. A smart control would essentially be limited to some data-stream in on Internet. And anything like that can be subverted seven ways from Sunday. Do you really want billions riding on THAT?

(and, yes, give us some Rube Goldberg scheme of averaging six different weather stations for your result. I'm sure nothing can go wrong with any of those ideas. Yeah, World finance then gets to be hoisted on the lpad petard).

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by cornholio on Monday April 02, 2018 @10:05AM (#16734537)
Something equivalent to LIBOR rates could in principle be made to run on distributed markets with a great deal of transparency and little possibility for manipulation. They are a standard feature of many contracts. Whole central banks could be automated. Something like "next year's tomato quality" will obviously need a physical world mediator, but that's hardly surprising.

When the great recession started, it was not caused by an external shock, rather by the viral mistrust that the underwriters of the bad loans were solvent. A financial fragility problem that the blockchain can work to address.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by lojack on Sunday April 01, 2018 @06:20PM (#16730857)
This risk can be mitigated by bridging the real world and the blockchain using oracles. This risk mitigation can be somewhat decentralized using a voting or reputation mechanism. This is by no means perfect, and I'm not aware of any trustless mechanisms for this, but its a problem people are currently working on, and I think there will eventually be a good solution.

I also don't think this is a false dichotomy. Most likely we'll end up at a place with some improvement over what we have today (I'd actually argue we're currently at this point now) but not without all of the limitations.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jwilliams on Sunday April 01, 2018 @08:36PM (#16731406)
> That being said, 95% of the times the word "blockcahin" is uttered these days, what follows is most likely bullshit.

This is true -- it's also true the 5% is pretty damn interesting.

There are plenty of interesting tokens out there. Some of them are tackling real problems. That's pretty exciting. I don't begrudge someone who's trying to solve something.

The historical analogs are lazy in my view. The financial and political system we operate in today has done plenty of damage. Indeed, some of the key examples listed on the slide.

The last global financial crisis wasn't that long ago (and wasn't that "reversible", certain people may recall). You could spin every one of those dot-points as commentary on our existing financial systems.

Doesn't mean blockchain is going to fix it. In fact, I have many doubts and concerns. There is so much to do. However, I really like that people are trying.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by kalleboo on Sunday April 01, 2018 @11:21PM (#16732059)
The 5% are interesting in the same way that Communism and hardcore Libertarianism are interesting. "Would be very cool if it could work (there's no way in hell it would work)"
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jwilliams on Monday April 02, 2018 @12:34AM (#16732366)
The political overlay is valid - I do see that blockchain can get pretty political. That said, I can't think of any modern political system that couldn't do with improvement.

Even with that remark -- I wasn't thinking particularly politically. There are plenty of markets I think blockchain has a decent swing at.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jmeyer2k on Sunday April 01, 2018 @09:35PM (#16731628)
One of the coolest things about cryptocurrency right now is the insane amount of money being invested in decentralization. With all of the Facebook privacy issues in the news right now, decentralization offers an interesting alternative where users control their data.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by adventured on Sunday April 01, 2018 @10:26PM (#16731846)
Recording something permanently into a blockchain is the opposite of users having control over their data.

Blockchain does not appear to be the best way to build a decentralized system for user controlled data (such as a decentralized social network).

We already figured that system out: local software, local storage, open source, local permissions & controls. Billions of people have personal computing devices now. No blockchain is needed at all, that just adds entirely unnecessary bloat.

You shift the point of control back to the local device and away from the network. It is that simple, and it's how we largely used to control user data.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jmeyer2k on Sunday April 01, 2018 @11:54PM (#16732192)
I didn't necessarily say blockchain. Cryptocurrency and the blockchain is the incentivization structure, not necessarily the end product.

I agree. Blockchain only makes sense for things that require immutability which many applications do not. OpenBazaar is a good example of one of the applications I was thinking of.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by gjmacd on Sunday April 01, 2018 @10:44PM (#16731917)
Except you wouldn't use the blockchain to have control over their data", you'd use it for identity and verification. Facebook' #1 issue is fake news and Bot's. You can eliminate those problems entirely with a blockchain and smart contract that requires identity and proof of such.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by cozicoolmail on Sunday April 01, 2018 @11:05PM (#16732003)
How would you prove identity on a blockchain? You'd be worse equipped than Facebook. Are you suggesting some entity verify folks who sign up for this distributed social network? Make an Ehtereum contract to do it? Either way, this sounds dubious at best.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by _betty_ on Sunday April 01, 2018 @11:41PM (#16732126)
I think the idea is:

* Website gives person a unique code to broadcast on the blockchain to prove they have control over that identity

* 'Approved' services claim things publically about identities (eg age, allowed to drive) which others can use to verify claims

What I don't get is:

* how you know which 'approved' services to trust in the first place

* why you'd want all of that information public

* how it'd fix the original issue

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by JimmyAustin on Monday April 02, 2018 @09:09AM (#16734155)
You can treat the 'approved' services list using a whitelist, like a CA.

The other issue is that none of this is necessary. If I want to prove to Person X that Gov Y says that I have property Z, why can't I just present a cryptographically signed certificate saying I have property X. You could even have a similar revocation list as CA.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by _betty_ on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @06:55AM (#16743440)
revocation seems easier with the blockchain. it just comes with too much other baggage to feel worth it.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jakelazaroff on Monday April 02, 2018 @02:41AM (#16732775)
> You can eliminate those problems entirely with a blockchain and smart contract that requires identity and proof of such.

You don't think if the problem were that easy to solve, it would be solved already? Throwing blockchain in the mix gets Facebook nothing that it couldn't get today by just partnering with organizations can verify identities.

Not to mention, the "fake news" issue isn't largely an identity issue — there are plenty of people and organizations willing to lie on their real accounts to further their sociopolitical agenda, and plenty more people who don't care if something's true so long as it confirms their existing viewpoints.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by gjmacd on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @10:17AM (#16811286)
It's as easy as requiring identity, just like you have to for your bank account or credit card information. They'd have to treat your FB account like your checking account.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by gjmacd on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @10:12AM (#16811247)
It's as easy as requiring identity, just like you have to for your bank account or credit card information.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by wruza on Monday April 02, 2018 @12:21AM (#16732304)
In other news, smart contracts eliminated cancer.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by coldtea on Monday April 02, 2018 @07:29AM (#16733693)
>One of the coolest things about cryptocurrency right now is the insane amount of money being invested in decentralization.

All this money is invested in "get-rich-quick" hopes. Few would care, or invest anything, if it was just for the decentralization aspect (case in point, all the failed aspects of decentralized social networks and other such efforts).

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by thisisit on Monday April 02, 2018 @01:03AM (#16732464)
>The sorry state of the distributed financial markets says nothing about the technology and more about human greed and the slow capacity of regulators to adapt;

I agree that human greed and corruption is a big problem. It is a problem for any system out there.

But, blockchain was supposed to solve this by introducing trustless and decentralized applications. If there is now a need for regulators, how is blockchain supposed to solve other problems? The world is already complex, we don't need another layer.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by lamontcg on Monday April 02, 2018 @01:07PM (#16736545)
So far I've found that if anyone is making claims about "blockchain" which don't just boil down to "basically git", then what follows is entirely bullshit.

People that use the word "fiat" are also entirely ignorable.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by euske on Sunday April 01, 2018 @07:57PM (#16731260)
If something is 95% of the times X, can't we just label the whole thing as X? Just making life simpler. (Actually, my threshold goes even as low as 50% for the case of BS.)
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by dozzie on Sunday April 01, 2018 @05:21PM (#16730500)
> * Distributed consensus schemes are not useful only for monetary applications.

OK, but blockchain is not a distributed consensus protocol. It's a document timestamping protocol.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by lojack on Sunday April 01, 2018 @06:23PM (#16730872)
Yes, a document timestamping protocol that we reach a consensus on in a distributed fashion. I'm not sure why a document timestamping protocol can't also be a distributed consensus protocol?
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jayd16 on Sunday April 01, 2018 @08:37PM (#16731410)
I do kind of find it annoying that we use the word distributed when its a clustered/consensus system. In my mind distributed should mean actors can work independently of each other but that's not really the case here. But this ship has sailed.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by lojack on Monday April 02, 2018 @09:31PM (#16741160)
I'm not sure why a clustered system can't be distributed? One can always argue over taxonomy, but clustered systems are typically considered to be a type of a distributed system.

I'm also super curious why you think blockchain systems don't have actors that work independently of each other? I was always under the impression that was the entire point.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by jayd16 on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @01:23PM (#16746930)
>clustered systems are typically considered to be a type of a distributed system.

Sort of. However, a Perforce server with local replicas is not the same thing as a fully offline git transaction, for example.

>I'm also super curious why you think blockchain systems don't have actors that work independently of each other?

They work as part of the network but two users can't make a transaction without having to involve the network.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by asfgjadfgionoin on Sunday April 01, 2018 @06:27PM (#16730896)
True, but in practice "blockchain" implies some sort of distributed consensus.

Except for private blockchains, which are totally brain-dead.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by KirinDave on Sunday April 01, 2018 @07:42PM (#16731200)
Github does pretty damn well selling private blockchains and whitelabel private blockchain services.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by rmrfrmrf on Sunday April 01, 2018 @07:51PM (#16731241)
Clever. I like it.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by kthejoker2 on Sunday April 01, 2018 @05:31PM (#16730557)
Can you explain? My understanding is we're all working on the same hard math problem, once a certain number of us have verified the answer (ie distributed consensus) one of us is given a reward to encourage further problem solving.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by sp332 on Sunday April 01, 2018 @07:06PM (#16731057)
Nope, any bitcoin client can verify any transaction very easily. (Bootstrapping by verifying every transaction in the blockchain does take a while though.) Proof of work is only to prevent a 51% attack where someone spins up enough bots to hijack "consensus" and rewrite transaction history. That's why the difficulty can be dialed up or down - most of the work in mining is not related to verifying the transactions.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by psychedelic on Sunday April 01, 2018 @08:35PM (#16731403)
Yes. People often misunderstand that verifying transactions with blockchain is intrinsically difficult which is not the case. The hard part is making a ledger that can't be rewritten.

And mining is actually less akin to solving math problems and more akin to, well, actually mining. That is, digging around enough until you find some gold.

Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by dozzie on Sunday April 01, 2018 @05:45PM (#16730634)
This is very much not what distributed consensus is. You don't "work on the same hard math problem" and you don't get "a reward to encourage further problem solving". Consensus is agreeing on a value among (almost) all protocol participants, and "distributed consensus" is proper technical term, not a vague definition by hand waving like "object oriented programming". Read about Byzantine Generals problem first.
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by ilovecars2 on Sunday April 01, 2018 @06:13PM (#16730815)
Could one look at it more like viewstamped replication rather than traditional consensus?
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by kthejoker2 on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @10:15AM (#16744784)
Thanks for everything except the condescension!
Re:Why “blockchain” is BS in 4 slides by dozzie on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @04:38PM (#16748885)
Dude, you come to a discussion without knowing the basic concepts. What exactly did you expect?