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Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by maltalex on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @05:53PM (#16693096)
> they had 6 months.

You say that like 6 months is automatically a lot of time. "She had 6 months to give birth". Yeah, only it takes 9, so 6 is short.

Consider the scope and depth of the issue and the fact that they probably couldn't involve too many people on this effort.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by zeth___ on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:24PM (#16693737)
Did she try having the pregnancy in parallel?

Doesn't sound like she was trying at all.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by jahewson on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:52PM (#16693878)
Twins - double the bandwidth but the latency stays the same.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by johnhenry on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:19PM (#16694035)
0.22 vs 0.11 bpm is actually a big improvement despite the latency.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @12:52AM (#16695374)
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of babies hurtling down the highway"?
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by bayangan on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @05:40AM (#16696525)
Truly a quote for ages
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by efdee on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:04AM (#16696602)
It isn't if you need the baby in 6 months.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by LoSboccacc on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:36AM (#16696720)
just get one from any outsurcing firm then
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by johnhenry on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:19AM (#16697812)
Pre-caching.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by tiuPapa on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @12:03AM (#16695178)
She should have used Rust for a fearless pregnancy.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by walterbell on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:20PM (#16693318)
Other operating system maintainers had only days/weeks in Jan 2018.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by loufe on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:52PM (#16693560)
We're all throwing darts in the dark here with regards to the resource they gave the problem and its difficulty. I think the real takeaway is just that it could be something other than just stupidity through and through.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by mannykannot on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:21PM (#16693721)
Unless you can be sure their response solved their problem without introducing others, it's not evidence of sufficient time.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by rtpg on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:18AM (#16696249)
So I agree with the principle that a lot of time is a lot of time.

Inversely, though, I'd argue that Meltdown is a relatively small problem! It's strictly around memory usage, cache, and calling patterns. There's not a lot of systems at play, though there's the hard "figure out which order of instructions gets the state machine in a dangerous state" problem. There's a lot less coordination involved than, say, a system call bug that would subtly return the wrong answer half the time and you know that programs sometimes rely on this and others crash because of it.

Some things are hard, other things are hard but at least they're basically math, and math has a bit more determinism involved. Imagine if UX design or debugging strategies could always be broken down into state machines!

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by avip on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:54PM (#16693889)
Great analogy. As an ex-manager always said: "3 women don't deliver in 3 months".

[E I see walrus01 already got that]

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by pizza234 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:17AM (#16696037)
This is Scott Adam's (Dilbert) hilarious take on it: http://www.dilbert.com/strip/2007-09-03
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by walrus01 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:50PM (#16693548)
corollary adage: nine women cannot gestate and give birth to a baby in one month.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by DrScump on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:19AM (#16696043)
See Brooks' little-known sequel: The Mythical Woman-Month
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by friedButter on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:38AM (#16696104)
But 9 women can give birth to one baby per month on average
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by ptaipale on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:39AM (#16696729)
Not really for a period longer than 9 months. Of course, you can have even 9 women deliver 9 babies in one month, but none in the following 10-12 months.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by stagbeetle on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:46PM (#16694175)
Retort: That's where you're wrong! If we hooked up nine mothers to one single faetus, we could get the job done in 9 months.[0] The same way, if we hooked up our dev teams to a lead that could delegate the work properly, we could pump out a Meltdown patch in around a month and a half.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/28/1205282109?sid=...

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by vageli on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:48PM (#16694837)
> Retort: That's where you're wrong! If we hooked up nine mothers to one single faetus, we could get the job done in 9 months.[0] The same way, if we hooked up our dev teams to a lead that could delegate the work properly, we could pump out a Meltdown patch in around a month and a half.

> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/28/1205282109?sid=....

Except this whole train of thought falls apart once you consider the difficulty of "hooking up 9 mothers to a single fetus". In the same way you down play the difficulty of coordinating multiple teams for a solution around breaking research. Show me a working solution of the former and I'll accept the corollary.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by mygo on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @02:53PM (#16700632)
you're looking at the problem all wrong, maltalex. Just hire a developer who is already 3 months pregnant.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by chris_wot on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:42PM (#16693828)
The Linux kernel developers came up with a decent solution, how can it be that they can do this and the Microsoft developers cannot?
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by rxhernandez on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:54PM (#16693892)
Is Windows written the exact same way as Linux? Never underestimate the amount of technical debt that can be holding a team down.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by acct1771 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:01PM (#16693932)
Ding-ding-ding, this is the non-bs answer.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by tinus_hn on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:08AM (#16697366)
Is that an excuse though?
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by chris_wot on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:01PM (#16693930)
It appears not, if such a bad bug can get through all the way to release.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by Raymonf on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @01:01AM (#16695420)
"Linux" had a bug in which you could log into a system by pressing backspace 28 times a few years ago. And by Linux, I meant GRUB[1], and in turn, (many) Linux systems.

We're comparing Linux and Windows, an operating system that contains 3.5 million files[2] (of course, not just the kernel in this case). That isn't really fair. Code is as perfect as humans can make it, and it certainly does not help that there's so much to take into account.

[1] http://hmarco.org/bugs/CVE-2015-8370-Grub2-authentication-by...

[2] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/03/building-windows-4-m...

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by pecg on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @02:03PM (#16700145)
This GRUB bug you are talking about, is not a kernel problem though; on a side note, I'm going to read on the links you provided as I want to see if encrypted root partitions could also be compromised, I suspect no.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by chris_wot on Thursday March 29, 2018 @06:55PM (#16711962)
That's not quite on par with this Windows bug, but I take your point.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by nl on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @09:19PM (#16694366)
The Linux kernel developers hate their solution, and they only used it because they can't think of a better one. It causes enormous increases in complexity and kills performance in many cases.

They revived previous work on this as part of the KAISER work in November 2017, and still had major bugs with it in February 2018 (ie, 4 months later). That's pretty similar to the 6 month timeline mentioned here.

https://lwn.net/Articles/738975/

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/whats-behind-the-int...

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by amluto on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @09:32PM (#16694437)
Linux kernel developer here. I don’t know know how MS’s Meltdown solution differs from Linux’s, let alone whether I should hate it.

MS (I think) uses IBRS to help with Spectre, and IBRS is not so great. Retpolines have a more fun name at the very least :)

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by sewer_bird on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:30AM (#16696696)
I think he means Linux kernel developers hate (their own) solution for Meltdown.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by caf on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:15PM (#16703724)
The essential element of the solution for Meltdown is the same in every x86-64 OS: unmapping the kernel when in usermode. This is widely hated because it makes kernel entries and exits much slower, and blows away the TLB if your hardware doesn't have PCID support.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by nl on Thursday March 29, 2018 @08:11AM (#16706305)
Yes, this.

It sucks, but what else can one do?

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by cesarb on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:22PM (#16694060)
The Linux developers had a head start in the form of the KAISER (later KPTI) patch set, development of which had AFAIK started before Meltdown was discovered and reported in private to Intel.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by gruez on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @09:03PM (#16694271)
>AFAIK started before Meltdown was discovered

source?

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by cesarb on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:04PM (#16694617)
According to https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com.br/2018/01/reading-pr... Spectre was initially reported to Intel on 2017-06-01, and Meltdown a bit later.

After a quick web search, I found https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9712001/ which records the initial submission of the KAISER patch set at 2017-05-04. The repository at https://github.com/IAIK/KAISER has an older version of the patch set dated 2017-02-24, indicating that work on it had started even earlier.

Finally, the timeline at https://plus.google.com/+jwildeboer/posts/jj6a9JUaovP mentions a presentation from the authors of the patch set at the 33C3 on late 2016. Note that this page puts the submission of the KAISER patch set at 2017-06-24, but I believe that to be wrong; searching the web for "[RFC] x86_64: KAISER - do not map kernel in user mode" finds several mail archives with that message, and they all agree that the date was on May, not June.

That is, even if Microsoft had been immediately warned by Intel (or by Google), the Linux kernel developers would still have had a few extra months of head start, by basing their work on the KAISER patch set. Was it luck, or a side effect of the Linux kernel being used for academic research?

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by Cookiesaurusbex on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @09:52PM (#16694557)
They said discovered AND reported, not just discovered. It is entirely possible someone discovered it much earlier and didn't report, but we won't ever know if evidence is never found.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by xucheng on Thursday March 29, 2018 @07:54AM (#16706231)
KAISER is developed to mitigate another less severe vulnerability.

From the meltdown paper:

> We show that the KAISER defense mechanism for KASLR [8] has the important (but inadvertent) side effect of impeding Meltdown. We stress that KAISER must be deployed immediately to prevent large-scale exploitation of this severe information leakage.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by freehunter on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:55PM (#16693896)
Because Linux is a completely different OS with completely different code and a completely different set of problems.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by chris_wot on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:00PM (#16693923)
That's entirely weak.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by freehunter on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:03PM (#16693951)
I think the WINE people are probably looking for your help, for some reason they still seem to think there's a few differences between the two. They'll be happy to know they've been wasting their time.
[dead]
[dead]
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by sctb on Thursday March 29, 2018 @10:15AM (#16707218)
We ban accounts that attack other users like this. Please stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:21PM (#16694702)
This is not appropriate discourse here.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by cesarb on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:23AM (#16696863)
Another relevant factor I just thought of: the Windows kernel has more constraints, due to binary-only drivers which have to keep working. The Linux kernel could fix any incompatible driver at the same time, since they're all in the same git tree (out-of-tree drivers are not expected to be compatible with newer kernels).
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by lmilcin on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @12:43PM (#16699301)
I agree. The philosophy is different. Linux is focused on having the right thing working, at the cost of compatibility (sometimes). Windows is (or at least was) focused on extreme compatibility and the actual features of operating system seem to be slapped onto the features of the previous version of the OS.

This seemed to work well for Windows audience in the past, also for Linux audience, due to the fact that they have different uses and audiences.

People seem to have segregated into those users that just want stuff working and those that want powerful operating system that allows them to do whatever they want.

At least that was until sometime the Windows 10 came...

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by rbobby on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @09:04PM (#16694277)
> only it takes 9

What if we outsourced the QA to India?

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by yorby on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:54PM (#16694869)
that's a really bad analogy... Note: I think that those devs should be up for death row /s
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by dmix on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:25PM (#16693350)
A single person with a fixed 9 month biological timeframe is the analogy you chose to compare 6 months of a billion dollar company's software development time by potentially hundreds of developers (for better or worse) but importantly for an extremely critical class of bugs and therefore that's "just how it is"?

Come on, software is hard but when you fix a vulnerability and expose a far far worse one, and had months to plan, execute, and test it, then you are most certainly justified in being criticized.

It's not like we're saying the code is shoddy and needs work, which is entirely excusable in a short timeframe. It's that they've left users far worse off in the end then from where they started.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by amluto on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:30PM (#16693383)
If MS had allocated 1000 devs to fix this issue quickly, the result would have been an utter disaster.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by dmix on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:01PM (#16693619)
Of course 1000+ developers working on one single solution waterfall style in a short timeframe is a terrible idea. That's not how software works... and we all know that. You know that.

Jumping on the next worst thing does not excuse them either. Nor is taking another analogy to the other extreme helpful at all in this discussion.

A solid pool of talent with complete flexibility resource-wise and a strong critical-level mandate is nothing like a single person with a fixed biological timeframe, with relatively limited resources, no matter which way you'd like to spin it.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by justinjlynn on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:38PM (#16693449)
If they had allocated 1k devs into n teams to develop different approaches and review and test each other's code and approach. No, the result would've been a better patch and probably not that piece of hot garbage.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by rhizome on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:24PM (#16693736)
I suggest reading The Mythical Man Month sometime, you're not accounting for the complexity of running such an "n-teams" scheme.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by justinjlynn on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:01AM (#16695974)
I have read it and yes, I have. Assuming they had that many developers qualified to work on the problem, they'd also likely already have been employed on other projects. Therefore the management infrastructure would already be in place. The state would need to change, but yeah, the government would already be there and qualified.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by hinkley on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:04PM (#16701401)
My own personal dogma is that your CI/CD system hasn't achieved its goal until everyone on the team can spool up a given build of the code and try to reproduce an error for themselves without interrupting anyone else to do it.

The person who discovers the bug may not come up with the best repro case. The person best equipped at fixing the bug may not be best person to track it. Being able to spool up new people on a problem for cheap keeps the whole experience lower stress and generally improves your consistency with regards to success.

If the cost of someone trying a crazy theory is linear in man-hours and O(1) or even O(log n) for wall clock hours you're going to look like a bunch of professionals instead of a bunch children with pointy sticks.

From what I understand, Microsoft has never gotten there. They got too big to fail a long time ago. And certainly wouldn't have for Windows 7.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by justinjlynn on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:03AM (#16695981)
Not only that but the teams would be working independently by design. 9 people can't make a human in one month, but 9 people can make 9 children in 9 months. You can then choose amongst them. So, yeah, I have no idea why you're bringing in mythical man month stuff here.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by stagbeetle on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:52PM (#16694208)
Anything sufficiently complex can be broken down into simpler pieces. This includes most developer generalists.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @12:57AM (#16695396)
Anything sufficiently complex can be broken down into simpler pieces plus the glue holding those pieces together.

In human organizations, that glue itself gets incredibly complex and expensive, as number of pieces grow.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by stagbeetle on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:25AM (#16698381)
I disagree that glue is expensive and complex. When you build a ply-wood tower in school to see who's holds up the most to compression, you don't douse your entire structure in glue. You get points off, because it adds so much to weight!

People are the plywood, fragile, finicky, and useless if left to their own devices. Management is the middle school kid who needs to take the wood he's been given and make something that will hold up to all the weight that'll be put on top it. In order to do this, he's been given a hot glue gun and enough glue to mummify the entire thing if he so chooses. Most of the kids will rush bullheadedly (or should I say uncaringly) into gluing the sticks together into something that "looks like it should work." They use too much glue, the structure isn't optimized for load handling, and when the day of truth comes, it crumbles down when the bucket that's supposed to hold the weight, destroys it!

What is glue? Whatever management wants it to be. It can be a team leader or a hastily configured IRC channel. In my experience (this includes organizing, delegating, and making sure that 40 devs-et-al get what's needed done), if you choose your sticks right, taking the time to make sure they're not hiding any structural faults, you can make the job 65% easier. If you lament that choosing sticks if difficult, I reply with "it's just practice."

The main issue I've seen, has been the all too common "there are no good managers." Especially in technology. The remedies for this? There's no bandaid. Each manager has to realize his personal shortcomings and fix them. But, to throw up his hands and say "the more people working on a project, the slower it'll get done," is a nice way to say "I can't handle all these people, but I'll excuse that away by saying it's inevitable. It's even industry 'common sense!'"

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by amluto on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:51PM (#16693556)
All but a very small number of those teams would have spent quite a while reading manuals, reading code, and learning how the kernel entry code and pagetable handling code worked. Then they'd come up with something, but there would be a severe shortage of reviewers.

Not to mention that the whole problem would most likely leak once that many people knew about it.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by thatfrenchguy on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:48PM (#16693533)
There's probably no 1000 good VM engineers out there, in the world.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by dmix on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:08PM (#16693660)
Yet it didn't take 1000 of them to fix it on other OSes. Why are we even debating 1000 devs anyway? That is hardly the point and throwing more and more bodies at a programming problem is hardly ever a solution, nor one I proposed in my original comment.

It's ultimately a matter of talent, resources, and proper management. Which is hardly an insurmountable problem for a major tech company which decades of experience solving world-is-ending bugs.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by chris_wot on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:03PM (#16693953)
I put it down to lack of openness to a wider review than just Microsoft engineers.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by golergka on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:53PM (#16693571)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law

Nine month analogy is widely known in software development.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by bitL on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:06PM (#16693650)
Software is all about capturing as many income streams with as fewest people as possible.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by exikyut on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:18PM (#16693704)
While also generating the most number of jobs possible.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by sova on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:33PM (#16694112)
What kind of jobs? Architects developing biotecture, or janitors cleaning up vomit and firefighters putting out dog shit that's burning?