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Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by dmix on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:25PM (#16693350)
A single person with a fixed 9 month biological timeframe is the analogy you chose to compare 6 months of a billion dollar company's software development time by potentially hundreds of developers (for better or worse) but importantly for an extremely critical class of bugs and therefore that's "just how it is"?

Come on, software is hard but when you fix a vulnerability and expose a far far worse one, and had months to plan, execute, and test it, then you are most certainly justified in being criticized.

It's not like we're saying the code is shoddy and needs work, which is entirely excusable in a short timeframe. It's that they've left users far worse off in the end then from where they started.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by amluto on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:30PM (#16693383)
If MS had allocated 1000 devs to fix this issue quickly, the result would have been an utter disaster.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by dmix on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:01PM (#16693619)
Of course 1000+ developers working on one single solution waterfall style in a short timeframe is a terrible idea. That's not how software works... and we all know that. You know that.

Jumping on the next worst thing does not excuse them either. Nor is taking another analogy to the other extreme helpful at all in this discussion.

A solid pool of talent with complete flexibility resource-wise and a strong critical-level mandate is nothing like a single person with a fixed biological timeframe, with relatively limited resources, no matter which way you'd like to spin it.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by justinjlynn on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:38PM (#16693449)
If they had allocated 1k devs into n teams to develop different approaches and review and test each other's code and approach. No, the result would've been a better patch and probably not that piece of hot garbage.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by rhizome on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:24PM (#16693736)
I suggest reading The Mythical Man Month sometime, you're not accounting for the complexity of running such an "n-teams" scheme.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by justinjlynn on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:01AM (#16695974)
I have read it and yes, I have. Assuming they had that many developers qualified to work on the problem, they'd also likely already have been employed on other projects. Therefore the management infrastructure would already be in place. The state would need to change, but yeah, the government would already be there and qualified.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by hinkley on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:04PM (#16701401)
My own personal dogma is that your CI/CD system hasn't achieved its goal until everyone on the team can spool up a given build of the code and try to reproduce an error for themselves without interrupting anyone else to do it.

The person who discovers the bug may not come up with the best repro case. The person best equipped at fixing the bug may not be best person to track it. Being able to spool up new people on a problem for cheap keeps the whole experience lower stress and generally improves your consistency with regards to success.

If the cost of someone trying a crazy theory is linear in man-hours and O(1) or even O(log n) for wall clock hours you're going to look like a bunch of professionals instead of a bunch children with pointy sticks.

From what I understand, Microsoft has never gotten there. They got too big to fail a long time ago. And certainly wouldn't have for Windows 7.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by justinjlynn on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:03AM (#16695981)
Not only that but the teams would be working independently by design. 9 people can't make a human in one month, but 9 people can make 9 children in 9 months. You can then choose amongst them. So, yeah, I have no idea why you're bringing in mythical man month stuff here.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by stagbeetle on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:52PM (#16694208)
Anything sufficiently complex can be broken down into simpler pieces. This includes most developer generalists.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @12:57AM (#16695396)
Anything sufficiently complex can be broken down into simpler pieces plus the glue holding those pieces together.

In human organizations, that glue itself gets incredibly complex and expensive, as number of pieces grow.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by stagbeetle on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:25AM (#16698381)
I disagree that glue is expensive and complex. When you build a ply-wood tower in school to see who's holds up the most to compression, you don't douse your entire structure in glue. You get points off, because it adds so much to weight!

People are the plywood, fragile, finicky, and useless if left to their own devices. Management is the middle school kid who needs to take the wood he's been given and make something that will hold up to all the weight that'll be put on top it. In order to do this, he's been given a hot glue gun and enough glue to mummify the entire thing if he so chooses. Most of the kids will rush bullheadedly (or should I say uncaringly) into gluing the sticks together into something that "looks like it should work." They use too much glue, the structure isn't optimized for load handling, and when the day of truth comes, it crumbles down when the bucket that's supposed to hold the weight, destroys it!

What is glue? Whatever management wants it to be. It can be a team leader or a hastily configured IRC channel. In my experience (this includes organizing, delegating, and making sure that 40 devs-et-al get what's needed done), if you choose your sticks right, taking the time to make sure they're not hiding any structural faults, you can make the job 65% easier. If you lament that choosing sticks if difficult, I reply with "it's just practice."

The main issue I've seen, has been the all too common "there are no good managers." Especially in technology. The remedies for this? There's no bandaid. Each manager has to realize his personal shortcomings and fix them. But, to throw up his hands and say "the more people working on a project, the slower it'll get done," is a nice way to say "I can't handle all these people, but I'll excuse that away by saying it's inevitable. It's even industry 'common sense!'"

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by amluto on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:51PM (#16693556)
All but a very small number of those teams would have spent quite a while reading manuals, reading code, and learning how the kernel entry code and pagetable handling code worked. Then they'd come up with something, but there would be a severe shortage of reviewers.

Not to mention that the whole problem would most likely leak once that many people knew about it.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by thatfrenchguy on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:48PM (#16693533)
There's probably no 1000 good VM engineers out there, in the world.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by dmix on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:08PM (#16693660)
Yet it didn't take 1000 of them to fix it on other OSes. Why are we even debating 1000 devs anyway? That is hardly the point and throwing more and more bodies at a programming problem is hardly ever a solution, nor one I proposed in my original comment.

It's ultimately a matter of talent, resources, and proper management. Which is hardly an insurmountable problem for a major tech company which decades of experience solving world-is-ending bugs.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by chris_wot on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:03PM (#16693953)
I put it down to lack of openness to a wider review than just Microsoft engineers.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by golergka on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:53PM (#16693571)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law

Nine month analogy is widely known in software development.

Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by bitL on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:06PM (#16693650)
Software is all about capturing as many income streams with as fewest people as possible.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by exikyut on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:18PM (#16693704)
While also generating the most number of jobs possible.
Re:Windows 7 patch for Meltdown enabled arbitrary reads and ... by sova on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @08:33PM (#16694112)
What kind of jobs? Architects developing biotecture, or janitors cleaning up vomit and firefighters putting out dog shit that's burning?