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Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by JohnJamesRambo on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:06AM (#16654987)
This is completely bizarre, we can't go down this route with the internet. It is madness.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by thrden on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:14AM (#16655260)
Unfortunately we've had a very poor week for internet freedom. However much of it has been the result of corporate overreach.

This week: Reddit bans Cigar, beer and Alchohol trading subreddits, toy bb gun sales, and gun related coupon clippers

Youtube (and facebook?) banned Channels featuring guns they deem inappropriate. Including videos regarding proper safety and maintenance.

It has become clear to be that the internet is naturally monopolistic in a way physical institutions are not. One simply cannot move their gun channel, or the cigar trading forum to other sites and have a decent chance of maintaining even 10% of their customers. What happens if google also decides that they don't want these things to show up in search results. We need regulation to ensure that these platforms remain open for all types of users, not regulation that forces more content off these platforms.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by delbel on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:42AM (#16655644)
I screwed up and accidentally chambered two 12ga shells in my Remington 870, it was a potential dangerous accident but found video to help me safely un-f the situation. Also I found a "bug" that allowed me to shoot, under a strange condition, my 9mm when the safety was on. Found out what not to do on youtube to avoid that situation. Also couldn't figure out what this knob was on my 10/22, turns out its a critical feature after finding it on youtube. This sucks I won't be able to find this type of information literally typing the gun model and the name of the problem to see a video to help me out as easily as yesterday.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by odammit on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:06AM (#16655742)
Go start GunTube and make a buck or two!

I was reading earlier today people are uploading their gun vids to PornHub.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-21/youtube-b...

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by amyjess on Friday March 23, 2018 @05:08PM (#16662641)
> I was reading earlier today people are uploading their gun vids to PornHub.

Funny thing is, my coworker and I were talking about this earlier today... we ended up agreeing that it wouldn't be surprising at all if PornHub ends up creating an SFW site under a different name (VidHub?) for things like this.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by bootlooped on Friday March 23, 2018 @06:36PM (#16663227)
It already exists: it's called Full 30. I am guessing not a lot of people use it because it's not YouTube.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by midgetjones on Friday March 23, 2018 @05:52AM (#16656431)
These problems can also be avoided by not owning guns.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by humanrebar on Friday March 23, 2018 @07:48AM (#16657005)
And you can avoid gross plumbing problems by not owning a plunger. You can have professionals with plungers deal with that.

Frankly, it's a privilege to able to rely on public and paid services to protect you and your property. Not everyone gets the same service levels and not everyone can afford to pay to fix the problem.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by midgetjones on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:24AM (#16658442)
And do those professionals need access to YouTube tutorials to see how to use the plunger?
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by cableshaft on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:52AM (#16658739)
My Dad, who used to build houses professionally and has been renovating his own house recently in preparation of selling it, told me the other day "Check Youtube before doing anything around the house. There's so much information there, tips, tricks, things I never encountered back in the day."

So yeah, I would imagine they probably do watch some videos on their profession on there, like I watch videos about game design and programming on there sometimes.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by humanrebar on Friday March 23, 2018 @05:57PM (#16662935)
You're missing my point. I'm arguing that self-defense is like a plunger... something you don't want to be without when you need it. And, like plumbing problems, it's a privilege to say "well, just have a professional deal with your violence problems".

But, yes, there are a few extra steps to unclog a bathtub with a plunger. YouTube videos are pretty handy there.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by vuln on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:28AM (#16658495)
I'm sure.like any professional they use the tools at their disposal. There are new makes and models coming out every year. Why wouldn't a professional use YouTube as a reference? Would a programmer get scoffed at for referring to stack overflow?
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by slouch on Friday March 23, 2018 @09:53AM (#16658098)
How many times have firearms been fired on your property in an act of protection? When was the last time?
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by nickysielicki on Saturday March 24, 2018 @04:11AM (#16665461)
Have you ever encountered a wild bear?
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by Consultant32452 on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:26AM (#16655310)
I think we need to start using the book burning metaphor. Google, Facebook, et al are doing the modern equivalent of burning books. The government shouldn't stop private individuals from burning books, but the public should recoil in horror.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by rsync on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:38AM (#16655630)
"It has become clear to be that the internet is naturally monopolistic in a way physical institutions are not. One simply cannot move their gun channel, or the cigar trading forum to other sites and have a decent chance of maintaining even 10% of their customers."

That's funny - I thought that exactly the opposite was true.

The Internet (not particular sites, not AOL or "the facebook", but The Internet) is naturally un-monopolistic because you can, in fact, just move your video channel to your own website and do whatever you'd like there.

In fact, it's trivially easy to do so - you can probably accomplish the entire task using only your telephone.

If you feel that this is not the case I think you've made yourself fragile to services and processes that have nothing to do with The Internet.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by avhon1 on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:58AM (#16655710)
It takes a lot more time, expertise, and money to run a website (even a simple wordpress site) than to upload videos to youtube.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by probably_wrong on Friday March 23, 2018 @04:19AM (#16656038)
You are right about that. And yet, the alternative seems to be "I want to exercise my constitutional rights, but I want a private company to make it easy, fight for me when legal problems arise, and foot the bill".
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by chime on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:53AM (#16655442)
And just a few hours ago the Cloud Act passed as part of the Omnibus bill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by abritinthebay on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:45AM (#16655402)
What about the “internet freedom” of those sites to tell people they don’t want to go away?

This legislation isn’t that but your examples are.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by bfuller on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:55AM (#16655459)
>This week: Reddit bans Cigar, beer and Alchohol trading subreddits, toy bb gun sales, and gun related coupon clippers

Reddit also banned subs that were used for sourcing marijuana, designer drugs, xanax.. direct deals onsite.

i'm not defending the drug war, but when you only include the subs you wrote the move looks really silly. if people were only doing giveaways and trading toy bb guns, those subs would still be open. the fact is reddit was being used by vendors for direct deals of illegal shit, and in order to put that to a stop reddit had to ban all sourcing.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by thrden on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:00AM (#16655485)
While I'm not saying they should have banned one, and not the other it would have been entirely possible to say ban an opioids sales subreddit, but not the bb-gun subreddit. It would have been trivial to simply make the rule such that only illicit sales/transactions were banned. They decided to create these rules and if the rules make reddit look foolish than maybe thats because they are.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by secabeen on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:48AM (#16655663)
Take the challenge from their side. If they leave the bb-gun sub active, how do they ensure that people aren't going to the bb-gun sub, and trading real guns there? They'd have to have humans police each post, or develop ML algorithms that can reliably identify when someone is hiding a real gun sale as a bb-gun sale. The former doesn't scale reliably (sure, the mods of the bb-gun sub could probably do it voluntarily, but I doubt reddit wants to bet the corporation on their continuing to do so), and the latter doesn't yet exist.

Banning both subs definitely stops the illegal transactions at the (relatively minor) cost of not letting people trade bb-guns on their site.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by pavel_lishin on Friday March 23, 2018 @07:51AM (#16657028)
> Banning both subs definitely stops the illegal transactions

Big ol' [citation needed]. This just moves it to r/beaniebabytrades, where you have to not explicitly say you're trading firearms. The only way this helps is by making those subreddits less discoverable, but anyone with an interest in guns will go to another subreddit, and get clued in by the members there.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by s5fs on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:13PM (#16659564)
"Limited edition Beary Garcia" is code-word for submachine gun.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by girvo on Friday March 23, 2018 @05:50AM (#16656426)
But what stops people from trading real guns on ANY subreddit?
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by bfuller on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:57AM (#16655709)
Ok but for instance research chemicals are legal to posses, so they aren't illicit, but vending them from reddit basically amounts to drug dealing.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by gergles on Friday March 23, 2018 @09:15AM (#16657702)
Reddit also refuses to ban /r/entexchange because the Silicon Valley liberals that run it like weed but hate guns.

So, reddit is moralizing, has a logically inconsistent position, and deserve to be called out for that.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by ironjunkie on Friday March 23, 2018 @07:05AM (#16656776)
I think we need to realize that the platforms that we all use are evil. They are literally the equivalent of the book burning that happened hundreds of years ago, based on their own view of the world.

I want a new internet in which content is NOT posted on platforms. I want to host my own videos and host my own pictures.

This is where we are going. I really hope that the greater public realizes little by little that the tradeoff of the ease of use of those platforms is that they lose all freedom of speech or control over their content.

Not acceptable.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by pishpash on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:22AM (#16655052)
The internet is not "the internet" any more. It's a corporate owned, tapped and monitored, centralized data warehouse. Another decentralized network needs to be formed separately adhering to the original ideals of the internet. In fact this turnover may need to happen periodically. Jump ship from the current so-called internet.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by cft on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:38AM (#16655115)
I wonder how long it will take to ban that too, like is Bitcoin ban imminent? Perhaps not a ban, but a legislation rendering it practically useless due to compliance burden. Modern congress now acts impulsively, fast, like in basketball.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by SN76477 on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:57AM (#16655195)
It is all impulse with zero long term goals in America.

This is infrastructure is poor in some places, some areas have failing infrastructure (such as flint MI)

These types of projects require an elected official to see beyond their term limits. Something few of them can do.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by huntermeyer on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:19AM (#16655286)
Members of the US Congress can serve unlimited terms.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by adventured on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:10AM (#16655764)
I'm guessing the parent comment meant their term.

i.e. see beyond the need to focus on short-term sugar highs for voters, to get re-elected every 2/4/6 years.

Politicians think short-term for the same reason public CEOs so often do: near-term placating to retain their position.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by adventured on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:52AM (#16655680)
It is in fact governments doing most of the malicious things to the Internet. China firewall, Russia, US espionage & data abuse, Turkey or Brazil censorship, British hate crimes on YouTube or Twitter, anti-porn legislation in Britain or Australia, and so on.

I can relatively easily block Facebook if I want to, on every site I visit. Try figuring out a way to eliminate all of the NSA's data hoovering of you. Tell the TSA you're not giving them your device, etc.

The Cloud Act is government legislation, that was not initially promoted by private industry. Private industry gave in over time because the alternative the government would pursue instead is far scarier. It was a compromise to keep the politicians in DC from doing something even more draconian. I don't agree with that compromise, however, just try saying no to them (see the Yahoo fines).

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by walrus01 on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:47AM (#16655408)
You are welcome to build your own internet already, and not connect it to any bgp peers or ICANN root nameservers. But I think you will find that achieving a 1000 km size scale at OSI layer 1 is very very costly, nevermind making it global.
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by cookiecaper on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:35AM (#16655860)
I spent a couple of months working on drafts and unreleased prototypes of decentralized P2P networks, but eventually, it comes full circle.

The internet already functions well enough for purposes of decentralization. Sure, there are some clear improvements and some less clear trade-offs that could be made, but the brass tacks is that these are social issues, not technical ones. They have to be addressed at the social level.

There has been some shadowy coordinated push behind the scenes over the last week, corresponding with the CLOUD Act and other dubious events, as described above. I believe this is just the beginning of such coordinated pushes. There are powerful forces at work looking to assert their authority and control over the open diaspora of the internet.

Americans take free speech for granted, but they forget that open forums where anyone can make a strong argument that lives and dies on its own merit are extremely dicey for the status quo power structure.

My belief is that the 2016 election pushed some fence-sitters over into the belief that the internet as constituted is a threat to their power, and that they are working triple-time to fix the situation. Ultimately, I believe this will evolve into something like a government verification and ID check system before someone is allowed to publish, and a YouTube-like strike system that will take away those rights as people are "abusive" or otherwise express wrongthink.

The relatively-free internet of the 90s and 00s will be driven into the darkweb where anyone interested in accessing non-corporate-approved content can be trivially mischaracterized as "a Russian agent or sympathizer" (if not much, much worse). What just happened with the purge on reddit is part of that.

The internet has been re-AOLized over the last several years as massive tech companies have consolidated against the grassroots nature of the homegrown internet. The CFAA and the Copyright Act allow companies to sue the living crap out of anyone who tries to free user data, and Google et al now have the resources to enforce this thoroughly.

The long and short of it is that a new network or protocol may offer some nice features, but it's not going to solve the key problem that ensures maintaining a free marketplace for ideas will always be hard: the rich and powerful don't like things that may threaten said richness and power. The internet is arguably the most powerful such tool invented since the printing press.

As another commenter expressed above, the real question is why this has taken them so long.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by walterbell on Friday March 23, 2018 @05:11AM (#16656274)
Some people became "rich and powerful" because of the relatively-free internet of the 90s and 00s. Why aren't they objecting?
Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by iamnothere on Friday March 23, 2018 @08:04AM (#16657089)
Charitable reading: because they don't want to end up hauled before Congress and raked over the coals like Bill Gates was.

Less charitable: they already made their money and are fine with pulling up the ladder.

Re:Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response t... by abritinthebay on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:46AM (#16655405)
It’s been that for about 20 years, roughly.