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Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by estebank on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:05PM (#16644452)
The video footage being presented is beyond useless because it is misleading. The important data to determine wether the system misbehaved would look like this: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/video/2017/mar/16/goo...

Waymo cars are capable of sensing vehicles and pedestrians at least half a block away in every directions. I was reserving any judgement on wether this collision could have been prevented, but seeing the video tells me that 1) a human driver might have hit the victim regardless, and 2) I'm very surprised that the LIDAR sensor didn't cause the car to stop to a halt much, much earlier. This is exactly the kind of situation that I would expect self-driving cars to be better than human drivers.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by danso on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:31PM (#16644643)
I agree that dashcam/external cam footage is going to be limited and possibly misleading, and I would think/hope such footage isn't the primary factor in evaluating accident cases. But I do think there's value to it. I shouldn't have said that it is the "main" way for us to process a scene, but the most accessible/relatable way.

What you posted looks pretty cool, I don't know enough about it to understand what I should be prioritizing focus on, but we can chalk that up to ignorance. The benefit that driver-view footage has is that it is a viewpoint all of us are familiar with. If you ask me to watch dashcam footage to assess some kind of traffic thing, there's a general expectation of where I keep my eyes and what I notice.

This normal-human-view mode is probably going to be necessary in AV cases in which we determine whether the car's AI did the right thing. Presumably, as AV becomes mainstream and extremely safe, these accidents will involve edge cases and outliers which are poorly interpreted by sensors/non-human-vision. Seeing the scene as a human driver does might be a necessary starting place?

But the Uber case in AZ, IMO, proves your point. The Tempe police quickly made a judgement call based on what seems to be inadequate video. Everyone who can now view the video will also be inclined to think how impossible it would be to avoid hitting the victim, even if the actual scene in-person has much more light. And of course, we don't want to judge AV solely on whether it performs as well as normal humans.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by thaumasiotes on Thursday March 22, 2018 @01:42AM (#16646062)
> we don't want to judge AV solely on whether it performs as well as normal humans

You don't think performing as well as normal humans should be sufficient to allow them on the road?

Or are you saying they should be allowed even if their performance is worse than human? (...as long as some other criterion is met?)

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by pfisch on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:03PM (#16645326)
j-walking, at night, no reflectors, in the dark.

Even if the camera was brighter uber isn't at fault anyway....

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by gophile on Thursday March 22, 2018 @12:42AM (#16645813)
Uber may not be at fault, legally speaking. That's up to the legal authorities to decide.

However, as a society and civilization, and even more so, as engineers and scientists, we are going to expect that the autonomous car matches or exceeds human-level performance in critical situations like this.

Therefore the time spent on investigating, understanding, and discussing the root causes of the accident is worth understanding. Accidents like these generally do not happen due to a single factor. It is necessary to understand all the necessary factors if we want to make autonomous driving systems more reliable.

At the very least we need to understand whether the pedestrian appeared in the other sensors that a human could have identified by looking at the sensor data, and if yes, whether the autonomous system matched or exceeded human-level performance by detecting the pedestrian, and if the pedestrian was indeed detected, why the autonomous driving system failed to respond to the situation.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Scoundreller on Thursday March 22, 2018 @01:48AM (#16646083)
In North America, isn’t the vehicle owner usually liable, regardless of who is driving?
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by ptaipale on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:26AM (#16646809)
Surely not? Cars are routinely driven by people who are not owners, and liability for traffic offences (including that the vehicle must be insured) is with the driver.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by mstade on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:20AM (#16647063)
In my experience typically only minor infractions like parking violations are assigned to the registered owner of the vehicle, but in other case – accidents, running red lights etc. – the driver is liable regardless of who owns the car.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by agos on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:01AM (#16648230)
parking violations are assigned to the registered owner because they are not present at the moment they are imposed
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Scoundreller on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:05AM (#16648258)
I mean in terms of who gets sued for personal injuries. Or to repair damaged vehicles.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by MaupitiBlue on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:56AM (#16648656)
No. The general rule is that negligence is required to be held responsible. If I let my next door neighbor borrow my car to go to the grocery store, and he hits someone, I'm not responsible. Unless, the person can prove "negligent entrustment", i.e. it was irresponsible just to let this person borrow my car, e.g. they're a habitual drunk, or blind, or 11.

However, most auto liability insurance covers whoever you permit to drive the vehicle, so the owners policy does typically cover the fender bender on the way to the grocery store.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by ckinnan on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:31PM (#16651910)
Correct, the owner's insurance policy is the primary coverage when the owner lends their car to a 3rd party. Obviously in the case of a moving violation the driver is at fault and receives the penalty, but damage is still covered by the owner's policy. In the case where the other driver is at fault, that car's owner's insurance is liable.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by andygates on Thursday March 22, 2018 @07:28AM (#16647647)
This car failed the moose test. Legal details aren't relevant, it's plain rubbish. This is test track pre-alpha stuff, for crying out loud.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by daveevad on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:23PM (#16645423)
The bike probably had a reflector on its pedals.

I would be very interested to learn whether or not the car's autonomous system identified a bicycle at any point prior to the collision.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by brokenmachine on Thursday March 22, 2018 @12:52AM (#16645856)
The car likely didn't identify an obstacle at all, let alone a bicycle, as it didn't apply the brakes.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by LoSboccacc on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:32AM (#16647119)
exactly this. what's the response time of software? it ought to be close to zero and significantly faster than human's. let's say it's a generous 0.5s - no brakes where applied at all, and even with the crappy darkened video we got (place isn't that dark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XOVxSCG8u0 ) the pedestrian was in view for 2 to 3 seconds.

car didn't see it at all even in those last moments.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Cthulhu_ on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:56AM (#16648652)
Which is weird, because regardless of reflectors, it should show up on IR and lidar imaging.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Scoundreller on Thursday March 22, 2018 @01:50AM (#16646089)
Usually other reflectors are required when riding at night.

But this was a pedestrian, not a cyclist.

Personally, while riding at night, I look like a Christmas tree. $10 on EBay goes far these days in the reflective tape and bike light department:

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by MertsA on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:13AM (#16647894)
Well it was a pedestrian but they were walking their bike across the road. It's not like the software should make a distinction between a cyclist in the way and a bicycle with no rider in the way.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by zip1234 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:12AM (#16647890)
In some places (UK for example) you need to have lights on your bike as well--not just reflectors.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Piskvorrr on Thursday March 22, 2018 @12:44PM (#16650289)
If everyone followed the law, this wouldn't have happened for a multitude of reasons. Alas, here we are.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by kazinator on Thursday March 22, 2018 @02:07AM (#16646163)
Indeed, it's hard to find pedals without them. Even ones that cost $10 a pair have reflectors. Unfortunately, pedal reflectors are ineffective when the bicycle's path of travel is perpendicular to the light source. The video doesn't reveal evidence of other reflectors, such as the common spoke-mounted ones whose purpose it is to highlight a bicycle traveling crosswise. For a moment, the bicycle is clearly illuminated by the headlights; I don't see any spots of light on the wheels or elsewhere.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by tirant on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:16AM (#16647042)
When travelling perpendicular to the car, bike pedal reflectors are not visible.

What is surprising is that the bike didn't seem to have Tire reflectors like these:

https://www.wired.com/2011/11/fiks-reflective-rim-strips-for...

They are mandatory in lots of countries, to the point that it's impossible to buy tires without them. All brands come with them.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by TomMarius on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:08PM (#16652717)
I have literally never seen that. Wow, that's a good idea!
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Someone on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:24AM (#16646798)
For a side view, the reflectors on the tires (visible at the end of the video) are way better indicators of “watch out! Bicycle” than those reflectors.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by WillPostForFood on Thursday March 22, 2018 @12:54AM (#16645868)
It was a side impact, so pedal reflectors aren’t going to be visible.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Piskvorrr on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:39AM (#16646879)
Wheel spoke reflectors ought to have been - from what I've seen in the video, there were none (they're surprisingly bright at night).
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Piskvorrr on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:37AM (#16646863)
See this video for a comparison of visibility (not in English, but that's immaterial - set speed to 2x ;)): starting with a "bike ninja" and going all the way to "Christmas tree" https://youtu.be/oAFQ2pAnMFA?t=1m0s
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by codedokode on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:09AM (#16648277)
This video looks too dark, as if the camera had not enough sensivity.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Piskvorrr on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:56AM (#16648658)
It's from 2011, there's been a lot of improvement in consumer-grade cameras since. Even so, it fits my perception IRL: even a small reflector is orders of magnitude better than no reflector, and adding multiple (esp. covering 360 viewing angles) makes you stand out at night; same goes for pedestrians.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by sitkack on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:19PM (#16644561)
The human driver didn't have their eyes on the road the majority of the the time. And yes, the video footage is _nearly_ useless.

Maybe the outcome will be that thermal infrared will be mandated on all sensor packs?

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by wiz21c on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:53AM (#16646930)
This 100%. When I drive, I watch the road. I don't watch my mobile phone, I don't watch the kids behind, I don't watch my wife. I don't watch the sky. I don't watch the GPS.

I just watch the road in front of me.

My idea is that the car has been behaving well for a long time and consequently the driver lowered is vigilance. Big mistake.

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by TomMarius on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:10PM (#16652729)
> I just watch the road in front of me.

Unlike many others, sadly - even when they don't have any self-driving tech at all

Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Tempest1981 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @12:04AM (#16645629)
Any chance the backup driver was looking at a driving-related computer screen? (Speedometer/Video of road/LIDAR/IR camera)
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by sesqu on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:29AM (#16646536)
That screen is mounted high in Uber's cars. The driver was looking low.
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by emodendroket on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:23PM (#16645064)
A fully attentive human driver might have hit this person regardless. Would they have hit them while taking no evasive action whatsoever? No swerving, no brakes?
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by Piskvorrr on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:05AM (#16646726)
I don't think so: the dash cam video is misleading. I had multiple ninjas jump at me before, and although I did notice and avoid them, they were not visible on the dashcam until the very last moment. Surely Uber would not release data to intentionally mislead the public?
Re:Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident by emodendroket on Thursday March 22, 2018 @07:30AM (#16647656)
Well, right, I think even if the camera isn't at all misleading you could have hit the brakes and hit the person at a lower speed.