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Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:00PM (#16641779)
What kind of safeguards would you introduce?

At the very start of Facebook platform the API would anonymize the user's email address, the app would get an app-specific hash, e.g. [email protected] It was a working email address with Facebook handling the forwarding.

This proved futile as the very first thing that apps then did was to ask users for their real email address.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:22PM (#16641999)
> What kind of safeguards would you introduce?

How about the ones they agreed to with the FTC in 2011 [1][2]?

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cases/2011...

[2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/faceb...

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by hendzen on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:20PM (#16641982)
To really fix this, Facebook will have to stop allowing 3rd party developers direct access to user data.

Basically, FB should introduce an App-Engine like platform where the backend of any 3rd-party application that uses FB data has to run on FB-owned servers. Developers of these applications would then ship their code to FB (similar to Heroku) and run in a sandboxed environment where they are not allowed to take data out at all.

That way FB can audit how the data is being used at anytime and kick out people who are out of compliance with their terms. If a user deletes their FB account, now all their data could be deleted from any 3rd party applications automatically. This is basically similar to the way the government handles classified data.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by aylmao on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:35PM (#16642117)
If it were some computation, aggregation or analysis this work, but a lot (I'd guess, most) applications might not fall into this category. How are you gonna present the data in a UI to users, if no data is supposed to leave the server?
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by hendzen on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:39PM (#16642162)
The UI could be a web page, mobile app, etc just like FB.com. But to see any user data you would actually have to be authorized as that specific user. I.E. a developer could test their app by logging in with their own FB account and using their own data but would have no capability to look at the raw DB entries of other users.

Or perhaps their could be a limited capability for developers to log in to their app as another user of it, but those accesses would be logged and periodically audited (just like the as-another-user-logins of regular FB engineers are).

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by aylmao on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:05PM (#16642407)
Hm, the catch here is something like this could happen:

  +--------------+        +----------+        +--------------+
  |              |        |          |        |              |
  | other server |        |  Server  |        | other server |
  |              |        |          |        |              |
  +-------+------+        +----+-----+        +-------+------+
          ^                    |                      ^
          |                    |                      |
          |               http request                |
          |               containing user             | 
          |               data for UI                 |
    http request made          |               rouge http request
    with a legit purpose       |               sending the user data
    say fetching assets        v               to some other server
          |            +-------+-------+              |
          |            |               |              |
          +------------+  mobile app   +--------------+
                       |               |
                       +---------------+

And there is really no way of knowing which requests are for legit app purposes and which would be leaking data. Now, you could require that the mobile app make no requests to any service but Facebook, which brings two questions:

1. can facebook do this? Apple could; they approve apps and get the binary/manifest before the app is released. But how could Facebook enforce this?

2. would developers be ok with this? Relying 100% on facebook?

It is an option, I'm not saying it's infeasible. An interesting idea for sure, thanks for sharing!

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by adrianmonk on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:18PM (#16642512)
I guess you could let the mobile app access third-party servers but require all traffic to go through a proxy where Facebook can examine it. (Either by letting Facebook handle all the encryption or giving Facebook a copy of the key.)

All of this tends to trade one problem for another, though: the user no longer has to worry that the third-party app has access to their Facebook data. But now the user has to worry that Facebook has access to their third-party app data.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by dmannorreys on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:18PM (#16642507)
What tool did you use to make that schema?
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by tzahola on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:24PM (#16642990)
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by aylmao on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:10PM (#16643321)
yup, that's the one.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by hendzen on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:14PM (#16642478)
1) agreed - for mobile apps to maintain some semblance of data sandboxing, this would require FB to work with Apple. I'm imagining some kind of new iOS "Secure API" where the return values from certain API calls are marked "tainted" and then Apple uses static binary analysis to reject apps that write the tainted data to non-whitelisted socket calls.

2) Developers simply wouldn't have a a choice in the matter - FB is so big that they can force the market in a certain direction if they want to.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by tzahola on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:22PM (#16642980)
Bits can’t be colored... http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:01PM (#16643255)
> But to see any user data you would actually have to be authorized as that specific user. I.E. a developer could test their app by logging in with their own FB account and using their own data but would have no capability to look at the raw DB entries of other users.

This is the status quo as of the 2014 platform policy changes.

The entire debacle is around the data retrieved (and saved) prior to that, which is what Cambridge Analytics has done.

> Or perhaps their could be a limited capability for developers to log in to their app as another user of it

FB Developer app has support for test users, who are marked as such.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:29PM (#16642058)
> the backend of any 3rd-party application that uses FB data has to run on FB-owned servers

Would that work for mobile apps?

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by hendzen on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:30PM (#16642069)
The backend of the mobile app would run on FB servers.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:36PM (#16642123)
Most apps that do "Login with Facebook" also support "Login with Google" and sometimes "Login with LinkedIn". The backend ownership issue becomes a bit more complicated.

This is even before we get into trust issues most developers would have with Facebook having access to their user data.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by hendzen on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:44PM (#16642205)
The portion of the app that deals with FB data would be hosted at FB, the portion of the app that deals with Google would be hosted at Google, etc. And this is only a problem for applications that pull user data from FB itself, if it was merely using FB for authorization but wasn't actually using any FB profile data, photos, friend lists, etc, than it could all be hosted on a 3rd party server.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:30PM (#16642605)
So most developers would say "But my FB backend is just a simple proxy / transformation layer that parses the data and sends that to the front end".

Most would be correct - some flows like inviting friends to an app, or showing friends who also happen to use this app (for games, etc.) are so common that they're integrated into the Facebook SDK.

For performance reasons (both on Facebook's end and for the sake of user's experience, just in case his phone moved into a zone with inferior coverage) a fat network request was preferred to multitude of thin small ones - you couldn't really predict when the user would fancy inviting their friends, saving their score, looking at their achievements, or checking out friends who are in same town as them - so a 24-hour cache policy was instituted.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by danso on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:08PM (#16641856)
They could aggressively pursue enforcement and punitive measures. It's not about preventing everything that could possibly go awry, but making it well-known in the developer community that Facebook/Platform has no problem shutting you down if you egregiously break the rules.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:24PM (#16642019)
I think that's sorta kinda was happening with

> we immediately banned Kogan's app from our platform, and demanded that Kogan and Cambridge Analytica formally certify that they had deleted all improperly acquired data. They provided these certifications.

To generalize the issue, if you were in charge of APIs at some company A and some company B (not necessarily located in your jurisdiction and not necessarily subject to the same legislative framework as you) told you they used to have the data, but deleted it since then, what additional measures would you recommend company A pursue?

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by danso on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:37PM (#16642149)
In that situation, I guess there's not much power Company A has with regards with Company B, right? Unless Company B is worried that they'll have a future relationship and thus will be willing to submit some kind of audit.

Zuck's announcement seems to have a decent outline -- start with investigating apps with access to large amounts of data, audit apps with strange behavior. But after a year, after the CA (and other) controversies are forgotten, what I was thinking was that FB should be doing regular, random audits/investigations, and publicize the punishment.

I don't mean identifiable shaming, e.g. "Last week, we banned Jane Smith and her Flappy Farm app for misusing the data of 3,000+ users". But maybe weekly/monthly tallies of apps that were shut down or sanctioned, and a breakdown of the reasons why, and users affected, etc. Every once in awhile, an app maker might post a "We Fucked Up" article on HN, which helps even more in reminding people of TOS.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by ilkan on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:20PM (#16645042)
From what I've seen, tech companies tend to be understaffed on enforcement and compliance, relative to their user reach. Was the "certification" anything more than a checkbox in an emailed Word doc? I expect that's one area where they could improve their diligence. I would argue that if you have a high volume advertiser who has already broken a TOS and continues to use the platform, that type of hands-off certification is deliberately negligent. Anyway, we'll find out more details from their FB account manager in the coming months.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bobthepanda on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:05PM (#16641826)
Then make "no requests for users email" part of the terms of using the API?
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by rhizome on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:29PM (#16642060)
Sure, and maybe they'll put it right next to the "you're not allowed to save any data" clause.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by ncallaway on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:59PM (#16642345)
One is much easier to inspect and verify than the other.

There's really no way to check if someone has made a copy of data if you've given them that data.

It's not that hard to check if an application prompts a user for an email address.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bobthepanda on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:56PM (#16642315)
One is fairly trivial to prove compared to the other.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by prostoalex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:19PM (#16641972)
But there are many legitimate use cases of sharing email addresses. Just scratching the surface,

* someone used Facebook Connect to login to NYTimes Web site, curious about their Food & Recipes newsletter, wants to sign up

* someone logging into e-commerce shop through Facebook Connect, making a purchase and then deciding that yes, they would like to track and manage their order on the retailer's Web site, and they will even sign up for an account with retailer to do that

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by MertsA on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:04PM (#16653131)
Neither one of those use cases would necessitate using the user's real email address instead of the forwarding address that Facebook provided.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bobthepanda on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:59PM (#16642350)
Which is fine. But most apps that I remember of this type (back when I used Facebook apps) would ask you for it on landing. Nothing ever has to be black-and-white.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by asah on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:14PM (#16641911)
Which they flagrantly violated...
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by pishpash on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:16PM (#16641942)
How about allowing pseudonyms for a start, like the original Internet before FB corrupted it?
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by debt on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:48PM (#16642255)
"What kind of safeguards would you introduce?"

I think the only sane response would be to shut down the developer program. I doubt it contributes much to the FB bottomline and it's clearly something FB doesn't care much about given the breadth of this scandal.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bandrami on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:06PM (#16642415)
That's true now. A decade ago, being a development platform was their main goal.