Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by omarforgotpwd on Monday March 19, 2018 @09:47PM (#16625299)

Of course a self driving car should be able to speed. My understanding is that speed limits are set by measuring the speed people are driving on the road and then determining a speed at which roughly 15% of the drivers are exceeding that limit. There is an expectation that people will speed, but by setting the speed limit a little bit lower almost all traffic will fall under safe bounds. Driving 38 in a 35 zone is completely reasonable. I probably would have been going 45 - 50 if the road was empty. If self driving cars aren't allowed to speed, they're going to be a nightmare for passengers and other drivers. Obviously different people have different feelings about the issue of speeding, but personally I lose my mind when I get an Uber driver that's driving to slow. Try and think about what it would be like if a computer followed every traffic restriction to the letter of the law rather than driving like an actual human.

People will vote me down because the idea of a speeding self driving car sounds scary, but I personally can't wait until the software has advanced to the state that it can confidently drive 200 mph on the 5 from LA to the Bay Area. (Presumably they'd have to build a much bigger better 5, with special lanes dedicated to autonomous vehicles)

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by freddie_mercury on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:20AM (#16626042)

> My understanding is that speed limits are set by measuring the speed people are driving on the road and then determining a speed at which roughly 15% of the drivers are exceeding that limit.

That is not how all speed limits are set; it just one possible technique: https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speedmgt/ref_mats/fhwasa12004/

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by omarforgotpwd on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:26AM (#16626238)

Thanks for clarifying, and the link! Actually a really interesting read.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by danso on Monday March 19, 2018 @10:03PM (#16625403)

Talking about a future in which AVs are allowed to go as fast as physically possible seems irrelevant when we're talking about current policy and infrastructure, in which AVs have to live in a world with majority manually-operated vehicles, driven by people who do speed, but are also punished for going over the speed limit.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by omarforgotpwd on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:19AM (#16626030)

An autonomous vehicle should also be pulled over and ticketed for operating unsafely. At this point in time the driver is still liable for the actions of the car and is required to monitor the autonomous system and takeover if necessary. However like a human it should have some discretion in interpreting the law. Should it go 120 in a 60 zone... definitely not but if it thinks it can do 38 in a 35? That sounds fine.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by YeGoblynQueenne on Monday March 19, 2018 @10:26PM (#16625514)

>> People will vote me down because the idea of a speeding self driving car sounds scary

Or because they don't think that speed limits are set so that everyone can keep under them- but so that keeping under them means you're driving safely.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @10:58AM (#16629104)

It's one thing to state that it's common and simple to, say, overclock a CPU, even if the processor specs have a speed a few percent lower. Typical headroom, operator requirements, and a decent cooler suggest that everyone could probably bump clock speeds by a few percent without issue.

But you wouldn't expect a plane crash investigation to mention offhand that the flight computers were mildly overclocked.

A test drive of a new self-driving car should not speed, even if it's common or normal.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by ams6110 on Monday March 19, 2018 @10:29PM (#16625529)

They should not be able to speed arbitrarily, but it seems sensible that they would match the prevailing traffic speed.

One car carefully observing a 30mph limit creates a hazard when everyone else is going 35-40.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by nextlevelwizard on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:07AM (#16626960)

Going at speed limit NEVER creates a hazard. It is always the drivers going over or under it. I am not getting a speeding ticket for peer pressure. If you want to speed then you can pass me at your own risk.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by Zanni on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:53AM (#16627129)

Going the speed limit OFTEN creates a hazard. Technically speeding is not "exceeding the speed limit" but "driving too fast for conditions." In a torrential downpour with slick roads and poor visibility, the legal speed limit may easily be too fast for conditions, and you can be ticketed--to pick one scenario that refutes your "NEVER." And driving the speed limit in the passing lane creates an obstacle to faster traffic trying to get by, a frustration and a hazard. There was a video of some idiot "pranksters" with your exact attitude that created a rolling roadblock on a freeway by coordinating five cars to drive abreast at the exact speed limit, proving ... something. They were ticketed for hazardous driving. cthalupa is correct, though more diplomatic than I. It's more hazardous to be out of step with the surrounding traffic flow than it is to "speed."

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by cthalupa on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:21AM (#16627014)

>Going at speed limit NEVER creates a hazard. It is always the drivers going over or under it.

Please be in the right lane if you are going slower than the flow of traffic. Regardless of whether or not you feel the people speeding are ultimately at fault, if everyone is speeding, it is a more dangerous to have a car that is going a dissimilar speed than it is for you to be speeding.

Keeping right is a small mitigating factor.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by QasimK on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:01AM (#16626933)

Of course everyone else going at 35-40 are a hazard themselves in the first place.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by kwhitefoot on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @10:42AM (#16628965)

Or everyone else creates a hazard when exceeding the speed limit.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by naveen99 on Monday March 19, 2018 @09:51PM (#16625323)

What speed would you drive if there was no speed limit ?

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by franciscop on Monday March 19, 2018 @09:56PM (#16625354)

What speed would you drive? Would you take close corners at 120km/h? People (on average) drive at the speed their actually very well tuned survival instinct tells them to.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by majormajor on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:24AM (#16626053)

I disagree that the average driver has well-tuned instincts. Accidents are rare enough events that you can drive poorly for a long time and still not end up in a seriously bad situation, especially in areas where inclement conditions are also rare.

The first time you lose control of your car might be in icy conditions, and might be not just losing control, but spinning out of control in traffic. The line between in control and not in control can be very thin, and so hard to know how close you are to it.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by franciscop on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:23AM (#16626227)

I mean self-preservation instincts, not driving instincts. I agree totally with the later!

By self-preservations instincts what I mean is that most people will try to be as safe as possible on the road, meaning drive slower on low-visibility situations, when there are many pedestrians around, etc. You cannot account on unforeseen circumstances or lack of knowledge, but otherwise people will try very hard not to get into harm's way.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by MrLeap on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:18AM (#16626026)

Without a speed limit, I'd take i-70 from KC to STL at about (160~mph) 250km/h for 95% of it. I'd make day trips just to get white castle at white knuckle speeds.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by franciscop on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:27AM (#16626241)

I don't think that is your average American! At least I hope not ;)

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by hackerman12345 on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @11:58AM (#16629709)

I-70 is a mostly straight highway with a divider, it'd be pretty safe as long as it's not crowded. Autobahn speed limits are certainly doable in many of America's highways.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by in_cahoots on Monday March 19, 2018 @10:12PM (#16625439)

I don’t think that’s true at all (though I only have my own experience to go off of). I tend to use the speed limit as a point of reference, and then drive a little above it. Prior experience has told me that going the speed limit plus some percentage ‘feels’ safe. If there were no speed limit I’d actually have to pay more attention to the road and surrounding environment to determine what a safe speed is. Right now most people’s ‘survival instinct’ is basically speed limit + some delta in clear conditions. That delta may change from driver to driver, but in general everyone drives within 10-20% of the speed limit.

As a fun thought experiment, imagine what would happen if your residential speed limit were raised from 25mph to 70mph. People may not hit the 70mph limit, but I can almost guarantee that the average speed would increase significantly, perhaps even dangerously in some cases. I don’t have much faith in people’s ability to judge space and speed accurately, particularly when they aren’t used to doing so. And this includes myself.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by franciscop on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:08AM (#16626188)

Ah but that is a whole different issue, the problem is that for the last few decades residential areas have been designed more and more like high-speed areas, and that had a larger impact on driver speed than the actual posted sign. I cannot seem to find the original articles but here are a couple of related ones:

- https://www.citylab.com/design/2015/11/some-20-mph-streets-a...

- http://plannersweb.com/2013/09/wide-neighborhood-street-part...

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by franciscop on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @01:18AM (#16626214)

A book on the topic quotes:

> "Note that the people drive the speed they feel comfortable with regardless of the posted speed limit if enforcement is not present"

- ref: https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=tF7uyw7feOMC&pg=SA13-PA1...

And a paper:

- "PEOPLE DRIVE THE SPEED THEY ARE COMFORTABLE WITH ON GRAVEL ROADS REGARDLESS OF SPEED LIMIT, K-STATE RESEARCHERS SAY"

- https://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/april09/speedlimi...

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by URSpider94 on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @03:19AM (#16626545)

This is well-studied. It turns out that the 85th percentile speed (the speed where 85% of drivers are below that speed, 15% above) is nearly insensitive to speed limit. Road design is the biggest single determinant of travel speed. http://www.lsp.org/pdf/troopc85thSpeed.pdf

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by franciscop on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @04:32AM (#16626815)

Amazing insights:

> Won’t raising the speed limit cause people to drive faster and cause more crashes?

> The Federal Highway Administration studied nearly 200 roads in 22 states where speed limits were raised, lowered or left unchanged. Prior to the speed limit change, 55 percent of drivers exceeded the posted speed limits. After speed limits were raised or lowered as much as 20 mph, there was a slight change in speed, but generally less than 1 mph. There were no significant changes in crashes, although crashes tended to decrease where speed limits were increased to realistic levels. Also, there was little effect on speeds or crashes on intersecting or nearby roadways.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by emj on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @07:52AM (#16627698)

This is for federal highways, traffic in a city should not go faster than 25mph in most shared spaces. Motorways is a different subject, but there should only be overpasses or resegined roads and traffic lights for such places.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by helthanatos on Monday March 19, 2018 @10:50PM (#16625638)

I would like the speed limit on my interstates and highways to go up to 70(they're all straight. 55 is just the only speed limit around here). Driving at 65-70 feels safe in normal conditions. Driving above 70 feels a bit too fast. Speed limits should be more variable depending upon car size and braking power though. I hate having to fear that I might be pulled over for going a bit above the speed limit when there are so many more threats than just speed. I don't believe speed limits should be anything more than a suggestion with dangerous driving being the focus.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by rootusrootus on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:58AM (#16626158)

I find this is extremely dependent on car. I've had cars that felt like you were about to die at 55 mph, and I've had cars that you couldn't tell you were going fast until you were really moving. For laughs, as my wife and I were driving home one afternoon earlier this year on a completely empty stretch of I-5 south of Portland, I casually accelerated up to about 110 and left it there for maybe a minute, then eased back down to normal speed as we came up into traffic. She never even looked up, didn't notice. But then again, we were in my brand new Camaro SS and I'm not positive it even got over 2000 RPM for that exercise, so I guess that's not a surprise.

So I guess I'm saying I agree. Speed limits are pretty arbitrary, there are a lot of things drivers do every day that are far more dangerous than merely speeding. Closure rate, unsafe passes, tailgating, cutting people off, etc.

/don't get me started about how people drive around you if you're towing a travel trailer, what the heck is it with people?

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by ryandrake on Monday March 19, 2018 @11:52PM (#16625922)

On most roads around where I live, if you are driving exactly the speed limit, you are a slow moving obstacle that is probably more of a danger due to the extreme speed differential with the other drivers who are 10-20 MPH over the limit. I’d hope self driving cars were programmed to deal safely within the bounds of reality. If there is nobody else on the road, sure drive the speed limit. If cars are whizzing past you on all sides you’re a hazard even if you’re obeying the law.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by lagadu on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @07:48AM (#16627678)

Depends on the conditions. With moderate temperature and dry conditions every single corner on a highway can be taken at 120km/h on any modern car, the overwhelming majority of them can be taken far in excess of 200km/h depending on the car's characteristics.

Then again under bad conditions on a 90km/h roads my survival instinct like you mentioned hasn't allowed me to go past 20-30km/h sometimes.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by rootusrootus on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:53AM (#16626146)

Prevailing traffic plus 10-15 mph. Or 135-ish with good conditions and no other cars. My days of real speed runs are behind me, and 135 is fast enough to keep things interesting and make good time without getting too crazy.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by omarforgotpwd on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @12:11AM (#16626003)

I would say they should be able to drive up to 15% higher than the speed limit at their discretion. So in a 35 zone they could go up to 40. But that's not a question for me to answer.I just know that the answer isn't that they follow the letter of the law all the time.

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Re:Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving C... by rootlocus on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @03:09AM (#16626510)

In Europe there are global definitions for speed limits. With a few notable exceptions, there's no such thing as "no speed limit".

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