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Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by smaili on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:40AM (#16593767)
I’m a bit confused...are you implying Bain Capital wanted these companies to go out of business? And if so, why? What’s the point of investing into something that you want to force go under?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by ggg9990 on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:53AM (#16593889)
What Bain Capital wants is to be able to make the short-term operating metrics look good enough to IPO the company and sell it at an inflated price to some buy side dumbasses who are left holding the bag when it goes bankrupt (mutual funds, pension funds, etc).
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by afandian on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:49PM (#16594431)
Why doesn't this poison the image of organisations that have been through Bain Capital then? Who would buy shares associated with this behaviour?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by mywittyname on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:06PM (#16594602)
Bain actually has a long history of successfully turning companies around via LBOs. So it's not that they are acting maliciously, but they are minimizing their risk and exposure in the event of a failure. And they way they do so is to push the exposure onto the downstream investors.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by prklmn on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:16PM (#16594700)
Saying they turn companies around is being generous. They typically don’t buy companies that are in the dumps, they buy companies that are humming along and might have room for improvement, cut expenses by firing employees, raise debt, and try to put the company in a good enough position to meet debt obligations. I wouldn’t credit them with turning too many companies around. If anything they are “turned around” from the debt laden messes that Bain creates into something the company looked somewhat similar to before the buyout.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by whatok on Thursday March 15, 2018 @04:03PM (#16596101)
So if these companies are "humming along" why are they selling to Bain? If they're doing so great, why doesn't someone outbid Bain?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by prklmn on Thursday March 15, 2018 @09:33PM (#16597945)
They sell to Bain because it’s easy, makes the shareholders happy, and the board and executives get rich from it. And to your second question, an interesting read from the FT https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/e1732e1c-fa7...
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by mywittyname on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:55PM (#16595058)
They actually did turn around Toys R Us after acquiring it. In 2005, they were digging out from yet another failed attempt to reinvigorate their brand (which peaked in the 90s). They made strides in the late 00s with a big push into online, but growth stalled as competition from other retailers grew.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by googlryas on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:39PM (#16594915)
Why aren't these downstream investors pricing accordingly then? Less sophisticated than Bain? Or are Bain's successes enough to mollify any fears about their failures?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by busterarm on Thursday March 15, 2018 @02:12PM (#16595208)
They also have a long history of running companies into the ground via LBOs.

Just look at Guitar Center. Unfortunately when they explode, they're going to take companies like Gibson and probably also Korg with them. Gibson is already in the process of unraveling right now. Their impending bankruptcy was obvious when they didn't have a booth at NAMM this year.

It's absolutely predatory behavior what they did.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by irrational on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:55PM (#16594496)
That's what I wonder too. I would run the other way if I saw that Bain was involved. Since it appears that people are not doing that... I have to assume that, like most things in life, there is a lot here that I don't understand so my gut reaction is flawed.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by ggg9990 on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:52PM (#16594450)
Dumbasses
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by cptskippy on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:21PM (#16594173)
Bain Capital's goal isn't to put the companies out of business, they are trying to extract as much money from and then sell off the businesses.

They don't care about long term. You could argue that they're setting up the companies for failure but that's not their intent. They do however have complete disregard for anything but making a profit.

One thing they like to do is sell off holdings and pocket the money. This hurts the company long term as it can't use those assets as collateral. An example of this is selling off store front property and then renting it back from the new owner.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by msie on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:22PM (#16594756)
Is the goal or intent not important anymore if the outcome is always disastrous for the company?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by cptskippy on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:58PM (#16595085)
The goal is as much profit in the short term as possible. The intent is to extract profits. The impact, damage, consequences, whatever are not factored into the equation.

They aren't trying to bankrupt companies, they are aware that what they're doing is harmful, and they don't care if their short term actions do bankrupt the companies in the long run.

It's like a kid throwing rocks at cars. They aren't trying to cause an accident or injury anyone but their actions can only lead to bad things.

That problem is not necessarily what Bain does, it's that they don't care about how it impacts others. That's pretty much the problem with society today. They're like vampires extracting the wealth from these companies and leaving them by the side of the road. At the end of the day the profit at the expense of everyone else.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by guyzero on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:44AM (#16593803)
No, Bain Capital wanted their fees and after the buyout servicing the deb wasn't their problem. I'm not the best person to explain LBOs really.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by exelius on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:56AM (#16593932)
Here’s how an LBO generally works:

1. PE company secures a loan in the company’s name (usually contingent on a turnaround plan executed by the PE with a history of turning companies around)

2. Company turns around and loans the money for purchase to PE firm

3. PE firm buys the company

4. PE firm runs the company, normally collecting management fees (paid out of the pool of cash used to buy the company)

5. PE firm cashes out by IPOing the company (usually at the same or higher price paid during LBO process).

6. PE firm uses the proceeds from the IPO (which the PE keeps because they are the sole shareholders; NOT the company itself) to pay back the loan.

The PE usually breaks even on the transaction itself once transaction fees are taken into account; but they make a killing on the management fees (which can be hundreds of millions a year). Normally, the company is left in roughly the same situation as before the buyout, just with a lot more debt on the balance sheet.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by Bartweiss on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:46PM (#16594412)
So the part I've never understood is why companies accept these offer. Are we talking about hostile takeovers? Or just already-failing companies that accept the turnaround plan because they're short on options?

It looks like investors and the PE firm have obvious ways to profit here, but I can't work out what the company gets out of this.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by exelius on Thursday March 15, 2018 @02:22PM (#16595288)
Usually this happens because the company has gotten into cash flow trouble. When that happens, the company’s creditors lose faith in its ability to invest capitol in productive ways. But an LBO is usually the option of last resort. If you don’t have cash to make payroll next month and you have 2500 employees, you take the LBO.

An LBO allows the company to raise cash to fund a turnaround; but the incentives of PEs are set up such that the PEs don’t need to actually turn it around to make money — aggressively cutting costs is often enough. The creditors don’t care because they get paid back on IPO and get to collect interest in the meantime.

The alternative is usually going to be a buyout by a competitor, chapter 7 reorganization or simply ceasing operations like Toys-R-Us is doing once their debt rating is so far past junk they can never qualify for an LBO. Then the company dies. This is the “service” PEs provide to the economy — they help wind down failing businesses in a somewhat orderly way while extracting maximum value into the economy from a company that is headed for the scrap heap. You can argue as to whether or not that’s valuable.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by Bartweiss on Thursday March 15, 2018 @02:45PM (#16595469)
Thanks, this makes sense.

I could never understand why a company takes an LBO instead of just taking out a massive loan against their assets directly, but this explains it. A combination of "the existing team isn't trusted to use that money" and "the creditors can collect without a full recovery" explain it nicely; PEs might theoretically be more objective at deciding when to restructure and when to strip assets.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by Blackstone4 on Thursday March 15, 2018 @06:03PM (#16596876)
I've invested in private equity funds across the entire spectrum. I mainly focused on the small to medium end of the market...

The bankruptcies of the large LBO deals skew the public's perception of the industry. Sure it has faults but the reality is much more nuanced than some of the views outlined above.

Yes there are large private equity firms that will acquire companies and overload them with debt, cut costs and sell prize assets. Yes there are many other firms who operate very differently. In the smaller end of the market, debt loads are much more conservative and returns are generated through moving into new geographies (i.e. opening a new store in MA), moving into adjacent markets (i.e. we sell tables. Let's move into the chair market), let's hire more sales people, acquire complimentary products to cross-sell etc. The list goes on. There are many positive qualities to private equity but the industry is tarred because of the large amounts of money. People on the whole don't like large amounts of wealth.

So why does a company sell to an LBO? Could be any number of reasons. The founder might want to retire. Maybe the kids inherited the business and no longer want to run it. Maybe the business is in dire straits and the current owner lacks the skill or the patience to turn it around. Maybe a company wants to sell a non-core division. Maybe a parent company is financial trouble and will sell assets. Maybe the price is right.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by Jesus_Jones on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:57PM (#16594514)
That's really my question too. I can guess that if you are say the ceo with a golden parachute agreement if your company is bought out, then you want to 'sell' into this, cause you win, and you leave. But it's terrible for shareholders (eventual ones at least) and for employees, and I don't know if I've ever used this phrase, but it's terrible for the world, for my country.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by tinymollusk on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:09PM (#16594622)
The company decision makers could be making a bad decision. They're likely in dire straits to be in this position in the first place. Add in shareholders, some slick marketing/badmouthing from Bain reps, and you have a good opportunity for people to act irrationally, in their personal dis-interest.

Also, you can imagine that Bain has a few inside managers who do very well personally from this kind of deal.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by irrational on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:58PM (#16594526)
And, who are the, apparent, idiots who invest in these companies during the IPO?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by exelius on Thursday March 15, 2018 @03:54PM (#16596039)
Institutional investors who need to place large sums of money without causing market shocks. Usually the company is much healthier on paper after the LBO; and to be fair some companies actually do turn it around and they end up being bargains. But a good number get caught in what I call the “PE Death Spiral” where they go through multiple rounds of LBOs and IPOs at a valuation growing right around inflation.

Yet every time they IPO their debt rating gets worse because they’re carrying more legacy debt, until finally it’s so laden no bank will fund another buyout, so there’s a fire sale on remaining assets and the company closes.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by toomuchtodo on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:48AM (#16593838)
[removed] Please see exelius's sibling comment, as it's a better and more in depth explanation.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by ambicapter on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:52AM (#16593885)
Why do all these CEO's (who I'm told are the smartest) and creditors keep on falling for this? I'm guessing they are getting paid off as well?
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by Bartweiss on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:43PM (#16594386)
The creditors make sense - they're getting high rates of return to compensate for that risk. LBOs are net positive for creditors, even though a lot of them blow up.

But I can't explain what CEOs and shareholders are up to; surely they know when an LBO is over-leveraged and likely to bankrupt them. Can anyone explain why these offers keep getting accepted?

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by mywittyname on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:13PM (#16594662)
> why these offers keep getting accepted?

You only hear about the failures, not the successes. So the likely explanation is somewhere between, "because it works" and "because they don't have much choice."

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by Bartweiss on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:43PM (#16594953)
I guess my confusion is what the successes even look like. Are these all companies that would fold if they didn't take the buyouts? Because otherwise I can't work out what the potential upside is.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by mywittyname on Thursday March 15, 2018 @02:06PM (#16595157)
Sometimes, though distressed investments are not their primary focus.

Also, they often buy and hold. So it's not like they go about gutting every company they acquire.

Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by JustSomeNobody on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:38PM (#16594326)
They would have to be, right? Otherwise I just don't see the point.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by kevin_b_er on Thursday March 15, 2018 @12:41PM (#16594363)
Bain didn't invest. The played a financial game and made a bunch of money out of it. Who cares what happens to these companies from Bain's point of view afterward. They extracted money out of company doing actual business and employing a lot of people for their rich owners. The rich got richer and not-rich people will lose their jobs. This is how our corrupted "finance industry" works.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by sct202 on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:04PM (#16594586)
I think it's good to think about their original intentions versus what happened, because for the PE firms the best case is to make a stronger company that can publicly IPO for billions of dollars. If they can't make that happen they run it into the ground and try to get out with what they can.
Re:iHeartRadio owner files for bankruptcy by msie on Thursday March 15, 2018 @01:29PM (#16594831)
Then Bain Capital must be lying to themselves if they think they can help the company. I think they skip the middle step of trying to help the company and just sell off assets.