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Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by procinct on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:14PM (#16498957)
They are basically biding their time until driverless cars take off it seems.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by CaptainZapp on Friday March 02, 2018 @03:53AM (#16500046)
That's what I never really got. The fact that self driving cars will be the savior for Uber.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the concept is viable in urban areas within 5 years and Uber puts a massive fleet of self driving vehicles on the road.

While it's certainly true that they wouldn't have to pay drivers it would be a massive shift in capital investment.

The "genius" of Uber is shifting the necessary capital investment for hundreds of thousands of vehicles onto the drivers.

Assuming one car costs 30K (which I think is on the very low side) it costs 3Billion to put 100'000 cars (which also seems very low with Uber's global ambition) on the road.

That's an upfront investment currently incurred by the drivers.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by slivym on Friday March 02, 2018 @08:18AM (#16501134)
Well I think there are two counter points: Uber already has a running business, so it's relatively easy for them to go to a bank and say 'Here's how much a fleet of cars cost, here are the running costs, would you finance us $3Bn for it'. The answer is almost certainly yes, and if not then venture capital would probably fill the gap.

The second point is that there are two keys to making money out of this: Have self-driving cars, find customers to rent the self-driving cars. Uber is already established in the second part. So it might be true that another company buys the cars and tries to run the business, but uber has the established customer base.

In my opinion the future of self-driving cars inevitably ends up with one of the big players buying uber to allow them to monetize their fleet.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by vmateixeira on Friday March 02, 2018 @05:50AM (#16500493)
I share your opinion.

Also, I never understood what kind of problem companies are trying to solve with self driving cars to be honest. Traffic in cities will be the same, if not worse. And I consider driving as one of the things I really enjoy doing. Why take that away?

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by mattmanser on Friday March 02, 2018 @05:16AM (#16500365)
Also, where does Uber store all the cars outside of peak times?

So it has to buy parking.

What happens when they break down?

Servicing.

How often do they have to replace their fleet?

$3 billion every 5 years.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by Bromskloss on Friday March 02, 2018 @06:49AM (#16500743)
> Also, where does Uber store all the cars outside of peak times?

> So it has to buy parking.

Rent parking spaces in people's driveways! :-)

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by Y7ZCQtNo39 on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:21PM (#16498987)
Yeah, but whoever is first to market on driverless (e.g., Tesla) has already said they will have a separate network for letting others use your Tesla to subsidize your ownership cost. Aka, your Tesla won't be a part of Uber's driverless fleet.

So, at best, they become a 40-billion dollar driver/rider match-making algorithm and a pretty CRUD app. Unless Uber itself is working on autonomous driving technology. It's so easy for drivers and riders to switch between ridesharing apps (e.g., ever see an Uber driver that also has a Lyft sticker on their car? I have, many times), I don't see how any of them can solidify a competitive advantage of sorts long-term.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by throwawayjava on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:34PM (#16499048)
> Unless Uber itself is working on autonomous driving technology

https://www.uber.com/info/atg/

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by toomuchtodo on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:39PM (#16499071)
Uber will exhaust their runway prior to reaching a level of autonomy sufficient to replace drivers. Quote me in 3 years.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by throwawayjava on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:41PM (#16499086)
Don't look at me if you're expecting an argument :)
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by stochastic_monk on Friday March 02, 2018 @10:38AM (#16502294)
Uber's autonomous driving technology was at the core of the Waymo/Uber lawsuit/scandal. I'm a little surprised by how easily Google/Waymo gave up and accepted a settlement.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by gpm on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:32PM (#16499038)
Isn't Waymo already first to market?
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by defap on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:35PM (#16499051)
What product do they have on the market?
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by gpm on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:47PM (#16499114)
Self driving cars... in Pheonix.

But looks like I was wrong. They do have a self driving car service running for a group of testers, but apparently it is currently free so I don't think it counts. On the other hand they've got permission to start charging and have said they plan to this year, so I'd still expect them to beat Tesla.

Source: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/waymo-now-a-full-ride-hai...

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by seibelj on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:16PM (#16498965)
Driverless cars in urban areas are decades away
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by jahaja on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:48PM (#16499125)
I find it interesting how the same people that have no problem accepting that the last 10% of a random software project accounts for a significant portion of the total time spent, can at the same time be so unreasonably optimistic that a whole sphere of tech can go from like 70% to 100% (where 100% is also the minimum amount required) in a really short period.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by prewett on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:09AM (#16499206)
Probably for the same reason software developers can't estimate tasks. At least for me the problem is that I figure out the algorithm at a high level and base my estimate around how long that will take me. But inevitably there are platform gotchas, or the API doesn't work the way I expect, or I forgot/didn't know about edge case. (I've done this enough that I have an idea of what kind of things can go wrong now)

I think the optimists are thinking "oh, the high-level problem of image recognition and building a 3D model of the area around the car is pretty much a solved problem, great, done!" But in fact, it's all the edge cases that will kill you. What happens when it is dark and rainy and the car in front of you is black, with no license plate? What happens when the car in front of you hits something in front of them unexpectedly? What happens when the car gets a flat tire? What happens when someone doesn't look in their mirrors before changing lanes? What happens when your "there's a problem" solution (like, say, stopping or slowing down) is actually not a good solution?

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by bsder on Friday March 02, 2018 @01:03AM (#16499459)
You would have to defend that humans make good decisions in such cases. I would argue that, for the majority, they do not.

I have been in all of those situations except for the black car, and the humans involved all made spectacularly poor decisions.

People who claim that self-driving cars will have failure modes far underestimate the failure modes that humans have.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by ajmurmann on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:13AM (#16499227)
I think the disagreement is what the last 10% are. I see urban driving as part of the 90%. My 10% are rural gravel roads with puddles, snow covered roads and similar bad road and weather conditions.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by UncleEntity on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:55PM (#16499150)
I see those stupid robot cars all over the Phoenix metro area these days, whole packs of them roam Chandler/Tempe/Scottsdale areas.

Now they have permits to run around 100% humanless apparently.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by ttul on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:22PM (#16498993)
Right. That must be why a Waymo drove itself past me in the Bay Area two weeks ago.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by seibelj on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:25PM (#16499004)
5 years ago I was told the same thing, and 5 years before that. Maybe 5 years from now, but it’s been the same story forever.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by JackFr on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:41PM (#16499087)
Honestly, it really hasn't been the same story forever.

In the 2004 DARPA Grand Challenge, of 21 teams entered, 15 qualified to race on the course, and none finished the 240 km course. The best result was 12km. That was off road, with no requirement to obey traffic laws or other cars to hit.

Since 2009, Google/Waymo has 5 million driverless miles under their belt.

Is it 5 years away? I don't know, but this is not the same story forever. This is iterating and improving at a breakneck pace.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by astrodust on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:10AM (#16499210)
That's the problem with exponential development. It seems like you're getting nowhere for decades, then all of a sudden it's starting to amount to something, and in the span of maybe a year or two it goes from impractical to plausible to obvious and ubiquitous.

The problem with predicting these curves is there's usually a confluence of factors that lead to that tipping point. When the right algorithms, hardware, and software are combined it'll be obvious in retrospect, but right now we're still fumbling around with primitive solutions.

When will there be a TPU-type device suitable for in-car use? When will there be adaptive deep-learning algorithms available that can work in the demanding real-time environment of a vehicle? When will enough testing be done that we know such a solution can work without endangering people?

It will happen, but pinning down when is very hard. You'll only know when you're close, and by then you're already flipping from impossible to inevitable.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by simonw on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:37PM (#16499057)
You saw a driverless car (with a safety driver) drive past you five and ten years ago?
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by greeneggs on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:50PM (#16499131)
In October 2010, Google announced that they'd logged 140,000 miles with a self-driving car, with a driver, including through San Francisco and a lot of California [1]. So eight years ago is possible, and I'm willing to grant a little hyperbole here.

[1] https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-were-driving-at...

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by staticassertion on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:21PM (#16498983)
I saw one yesterday. There was a driver but like... come one, decades?
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by seibelj on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:23PM (#16499001)
When driverless cars are common on midwestern highways every night, they will start moving into complex urban areas. We are very far from cars navigating downtown NYC, Seattle, SF, Boston, etc.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by 60654 on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:41PM (#16499083)
Re "midwestern highways": haha, I don't see a "self-driving" car navigating the I-90 in Chicago anytime sooner than SF. ;) At least SFBA has super mild weather that makes the obstacle detection problem much easier. Here there are only two seasons: winter and road construction.

(But yeah, we are very far from cars navigating urban areas, or indeed anyplace where weather is inclement and so are people.)

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by woah on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:33PM (#16499042)
Do you live in NYC, Seattle, SF, or Boston?
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by seibelj on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:40PM (#16499076)
Yes, Boston, and when can I order my driverless car to pick me up?
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by gpm on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:20AM (#16499255)
A few months ago if you ignore the safety driver [0].

If cars with safety drivers don't count, nearly a year ago if you move to Pheonix and get lucky [1]. They're apparently planning to launch in more cities "soon" (though I can't find a list or date) [2] and they've recently got permission to start charging passengers and intend to by the end of they year [3].

So I think "decades" is an exaggeration.

[0] https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16742924/lyft-nutonomy-bo...

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/25/15415840/waymo-self-drivi...

[2] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/01/waymo...

[3] https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/waymo-now-a-full-ride-hai...

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by seanmcdirmid on Friday March 02, 2018 @01:59AM (#16499671)
Pretty sure driverless cars are being tested in almost all of those cities already.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by astrodust on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:09AM (#16499203)
The Falcon Heavy took five years to develop and it's basically just a bigger version of the same Falcon 9 rocket they've been sending up for years.

Even if you have a driverless solution today it'll take years to test it and get it certified.

Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by debt on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:11AM (#16499213)
A gas-powered, highway-capable, driverless car feels callous. I hope those algos are good.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by nerfhammer on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:26AM (#16499290)
Urban areas are easy. Snow is a hundred times harder.
Re:Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, ... by acmustudent on Friday March 02, 2018 @02:24AM (#16499759)
I see a lot of driverless ubers here in pittsburgh