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Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by itissid on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:01AM (#16473857)
If self driving cars go mainstream, people's attitude and thinking of the car as only a transport vehicle may change. Even in congested traffic one may view it as a secondary home where they can work and eat breakfast in and not care about the time it takes.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by czechdeveloper on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:19AM (#16474071)
It will create group of hyper-commuters who travel to work longer than it standard today because it will become slightly more convenient. Nothing I'm looking forward to.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by dmix on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:49AM (#16474424)
That has interesting implications for real estate. It might singlehandedly revert the trend of living in dense urban areas.

It wouldn't be as bad if cars become fully electrified and cars become smaller as they shift from individual car ownership (where you buy a 4-5 seater for edge cases but only use 1-2 seats 95% of the time).

When you order your automated fleet car to pick you up you can say I only need one seat, which will massively reduce car sizes and energy expenditures.

Self driving cars can potentially link up like trains on highways to further reduce congestion and reduce energy use.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by burlesona on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:02AM (#16474611)
I could just as easily see it going the other way. With self-driving we could free up tons of urban land from being parking, as all cars can essentially valet themselves to a more optimal, consolidated parking location that may not be adjacent to your destination, or put themselves in “Uber mode” and run errand while you’re not using them. Uber becomes even cheaper, thus making it even easier for people to live in cities without a car, and greatly improving transport in places where public transit is not great.

Thus the reduced need for car ownership and all that parking that is now on the market for redevelopment should lower the cost of living in cities which is a huge deterrent that keeps people out right now.

I imagine that there will be some flux in both directions, with the less desirable suburbs being the losers in that equation.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by dmix on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:08AM (#16474700)
Urban parking lots would essentially become high traffic charging stations. Those cars will need to charge every 100-200km, so owning parking lots will become highly profitable soon.

If I was a long-term real estate developer I'd be buying up a bunch of urban parking lots and converting them into charging stations. Then selling a stock of them to Tesla/Uber in 5-10yrs at a high mark-up.

Apartment/grocery stores/office/etc buildings with underground parking could technically lease out their land as well.

It would still very likely free up far more land than is needed for charging, as so much parking space is used for far longer than the average charging/waiting-for-fleet-calls would need. Not to mention the AI space optimization they would utilize.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by djrogers on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @12:16PM (#16475520)
> Those cars will need to charge every 100-200km

More like every 400-500km. Even current electric cars generally have ranges in the 350km+ range, and they're getting better every generation. Unless my work provides me free charging, I'll be charging at home where my electricity is supplied by my solar panels.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by dmix on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @12:45PM (#16475865)
Oh wow, it was actually 200 miles for a Tesla 3 which is 350km. And it's only going to improve.

That means in an urban environment they'll be able to drive for quite a long time before charging... that's interesting as it means even less real estate needed for charging.

The implications of this technology on daily life in the next decade will be nearly as interesting as the deployment of consumer internet in the 1990s. There are so many possibilities, it's very exciting...

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by maccard on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @04:06PM (#16477875)
Interestingly That's not far off the range of an average petrol/gas car according to [0] - I can't vouch for the numbers in that article though.

[0] https://solarchargeddriving.com/2011/05/13/whats-your-gasoli...

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ckinnan on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:37PM (#16477066)
Yeah, the demand for parking will collapse, which would bring down the value of parking lots, that's going to be a far bigger trend than space for charging.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by erikpukinskis on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:18PM (#16480638)
I don’t see why they’d need to charge near demand though. Charged vehicles can move into dense areas, drive around for a couple hours and then grab one rider to go out to a charge station in a cheap area, then grab someone else and head back in to the city center.

Seems like there will be plenty of fungibility in charge locations.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by dmix on Thursday March 01, 2018 @12:19PM (#16493966)
It's not just charging though, space is also needed for waiting for a fleet call while conserving energy. I'm sure the usage time will be highly optimized but there are still going to be significant differences in demand/number of cars on the road between surge/peak hours and usual demand. Potentially meaning extra vehicles needed for surge are not being used 75% of the day.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by empath75 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @12:37PM (#16475761)
It makes no sense for an individual to buy a self driving car, honestly. Remove the cost of paying for a driver from a taxi ride and taking taxis everywhere becomes much more economical.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ryandrake on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:56AM (#16474529)
My commute is currently around 2 hours each way. If I had a self driving car Im still probably not moving much further away, even though it would be a significant cost of living difference.

On the other hand I could see people whose commutes are 30 minutes tolerating a 1 hour self driving commute especially if it means they are paying 1/2 their rent.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by dmix on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:13AM (#16474771)
> My commute is currently around 2 hours each way.

I will never understand how people do this... especially so many of them without car pooling, which means they have to focus the whole time.

I'd easily trade those hours for 100% the rent costs and half the living space.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by illegalsmile on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:29AM (#16474975)
I don't and won't understand either. My job is ~5 minutes by car, 15 by bike and I did that on purpose. To spend 4 waking hours essentially unable to do anything other than listen to music/podcasts/books while putting up with other drivers and weather would drive me insane.

I have to imagine that there are extenuating circumstances that force people into these absurd commutes.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ryandrake on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:33AM (#16475018)
Congratulations on your good fortune! In my case, I would either need two incomes or significantly reduce my family’s standard of living (live in a cramped apartment or townhouse) to move closer. Welcome to the Bay Area!

Self driving cars will be life changing. They can’t come soon enough.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by aidenn0 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:34PM (#16478683)
And this is why I won't move to the bay area.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by clort on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @12:55PM (#16475988)
Or maybe people who live in a self-driving van; it can park someplace out in the country in the evening and deliver you to your work just in time to start..
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by fudged71 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:02PM (#16478408)
I heard a statistic that the average commute across the country is 30minutes because people will always move far enough away for cost but close enough for travel time. I agree it could be possible to impact real estate if commuting is no longer stressful and congested.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by martinald on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:21AM (#16474087)
What, like an incredibly space inefficient train or bus? It will also cause insane traffic congestion if people cared less about the congestion.

At a certain level of congestion people think it will take too long and avoid the journey. All this will do is move the threshold even higher. Most metro areas need to look at transit as the solution. Self driving vehicles may play a role in feeder routes but the idea suddenly congestion will be solved because of self driving vehicles is crazy; and IMO will actually be the opposite.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by RandallBrown on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16474114)
That's kinda like saying your yard is a space inefficient park.

There are good reasons people don't want to be crammed on a bus or train with other people all of the time.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by martinald on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:25AM (#16474138)
Buy first class train tickets then? On DB you can even get a private office on ICE trains. They're really expensive; because that amount of space is by its nature expensive.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by walshemj on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:55AM (#16474513)
if I could afford that I wouldn't need to work - get real mate
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by drb91 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16474126)
Remote work could solve congestion.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by mikepurvis on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:35AM (#16474235)
But remote work has been an option for decades, and rush hour is still a thing.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by Retric on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:05AM (#16474653)
The US has largely abandoned new road construction which IMO is a large part of the issue. There is an old saying you can't build your way out of congestion, but it really does work in many areas. Just look at a small town building a bypass.

The problem is when congestion is so bad it's suppressing trips there is a middle ground when improvements are less obvious. That and city's need to be designated to absorb highway traffic or highways just end up as expensive parking lots.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by drb91 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:10AM (#16474728)
An option, sure, but not for the labor side of things, and why should a corp care about congestion?
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by erikpukinskis on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @10:11AM (#16483463)
Remote work requires eye contact, which doesn’t exist yet. It will happen rapidly once we have VR with eye tracking.

The other thing missing from remote work tools is collocated workspaces (can’t fit that on your monitor). Existing VR tech solves that problem though.

Instead of working on Google Docs in your office, you’ll work IN Google Docs in VR, and your coworkers will be there nearby, and you’ll be able to talk face to face without leaving your workspace.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by drb91 on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:35PM (#16486013)
Certainly not all remote work requires eye contact, including the vast majority of white collar jobs--especially technical jobs. This argument is silly and never comes with anything but anecdotal evidence and arbitrary standards. In reality, managers want people in the room with them because it's easier on them.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by erikpukinskis on Thursday March 01, 2018 @02:13AM (#16490246)
Well, how do you explain "it's easier" then? I gave my explanation of why I think it's easier. Do you have another theory?
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by drdeadringer on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @12:46AM (#16480967)
There are jobs you cannot do remotely, or at the very least requires a person on site for your remote commands to work.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by lifeformed on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @06:36PM (#16479214)
But cars get you to exactly where you need to go, and leave whenever you want to leave.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by adamnemecek on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:22AM (#16474101)
Train or bus are pretty annoying. Like quite a few times, the bus is packed.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by martinald on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:25AM (#16474129)
Yes but you've probably got 100 people on the bus if it's packed in a few square metres of road space. If you had a self driving vehicle that was comfortable, you'd need probably 100s of square m of road space to take all the people. Which means even more immense congestion.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by matte_black on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:12AM (#16473989)
Personally I'm not convinced. I wish we could just skip the self driving car phase and go straight to personal self flying drones.

Less edge cases to deal with, and since most people are not pilots the drone must be 100% automated, turning it into something more like a horse-drawn carriage from days of old. Since air traffic is more tightly controlled they do not have to compete much with piloted aircraft. No pedestrians to worry about, minimal possibilities for accidents. Flying away and parking somewhere away from your location is not just a feature – it's mandatory since our world has no accommodations for consumer aircraft parking. Since most landings can be done on the rooftops of tall buildings, it's conceivable that we may reduce the amount of time we spend walking on dangerous or dirty streets, and also opens the door for more creative skyward architecture and retail. And of course there's the magnificent views you'll get of a city even in a boring daily commute.

I will probably not own a self driving car given current technology, but I can't wait to see the age of true flying transports for the masses.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ng-user on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:30AM (#16474190)
> Less edge cases to deal with

I believe this is wildly inaccurate.

We already have the infrastructure for self-driving vehicles. How do you handle a mechanical failure of your personal flying drone? Does it drop you to the ground or on a group of pedestrians nearby? This surely only increases anxiety of people walking below. What is the recommended height for a self-flying drone? 100's of ft above ground? Not to mention there are no drones (to my knowledge) that can legally transport a human today in 2018, how long until we develop/regulate that technology? (I understand it's the same with self-driving vehicles but we've been working on this for _years_ already and things have improved significantly in that time period)

While I like your outside the box thinking, I disagree with the notion that there are less edge cases than self-driving cars, at minimum it's on par with the same amount of edge cases as self-driving vehicles.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by freehunter on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:59AM (#16474571)
I also believe there are far more edge cases to deal with: specifically the edge of the blades on the propellers.

Whirling blades with an engine powerful enough to lift and transport a human plus cargo whizzing through downtown areas, and everyone owns one? It only makes sense in sci-fi movies.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by matte_black on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:03AM (#16474624)
If your drone fails catastrophically such that it no longer has enough working propellers to land safely, then you crash and die. Simple as that. The same can happen in a vehicle, or any other aircraft. In the end, the loss of life amounts to somewhat of a handful of people. No worse than car accidents which kill people daily and all the time.

Recommended height? It's already laid out, just look at aeronautical maps.

The technology will come. What we require is more battery density and perhaps better materials. Prototype drones for human transport are already out there.

It is certainly a lot less edge cases. But again, when it comes to aircraft people seem to exaggerate dangers and make it seem like a big deal. Aircraft are safer than cars when you know what you're doing.

Because humans also don't currently fly drones to get around, you don't have to deal with all the human cultural and behavioral quirks that come with traffic. Good luck with your self-driving car on India's streets.

I have come to believe that by the time self-driving tech is truly viable at level 5 autonomy, personal drone transports would have long been viable before that.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by nradov on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:49PM (#16478788)
Driving a horse-drawn carriage fast and safely takes more skill than driving a modern car. Pulling a carriage isn't a natural behavior for horses. They have to be carefully managed. It takes a fine eye and careful touch developed over years of experience.

Very few tall buildings can accommodate aircraft landing pads. There isn't space due to HVAC machinery and antennas, plus they weren't designed to support extra weight.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by janlaureys on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16474121)
I find this a really interesting concept but really hard to pull off on a big scale.

First of all I thinkg battery energy density will have to multiply a few times.

Traffic will have to be actively monitored 24/7 to avoid collisions, avoid vehicles going through no-fly zones.

Crashes would also be a lot worse, possibly crashing into houses, schools, hospitals.

Not trying to be overly critical, just a fun thing to think about.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by adrianmonk on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:20AM (#16481781)
Flying requires more energy. In a world where energy efficiency is only increasing in importance, that's a big problem.

Also, if everyone is commuting to work by landing on rooftops, then streets will no longer be dangerous: rooftops will be because they will be crowded with drones dropping off thousands of people.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by zjaffee on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @06:51PM (#16479311)
Flying cars will never see the light of day as a mass transportation option over land. The noise is far too great. Given the way in which cars already take away from the human experience of moving through the world, imagine how much worse that would be with cars + drones always on top of you.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by Jyaif on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:50AM (#16474443)
I'm not convinced about self flying drones either, we should just skip to teleportation.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by loceng on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:44AM (#16474356)
Personal self-flying drones won't happen unless the technology becomes near silent (compared to now), meaning different technology will need to be developed before this happens.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by soheil on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:40AM (#16474304)
I don't think it'll be fundamentally different than taking a black car for example or any uber for that matter. If you think you can dine and work in black car then you can in a self-driving car too, but I haven't seen that happening yet. There are challenges to that that are not just the fact you are not driving, like the fact that the car moves constantly, making turns, etc. are things that are not very friendly to a dining experience or getting work done.

Perhaps if there was a dedicated lane where self-driving cars would move slowly like a train that would be more plausible. Or maybe even freeway driving, no stop and go traffic though.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by mattmanser on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:49AM (#16474429)
Once self driving cars are a thing, won't the design change? No need for a driver's seat, no need to put in a gear stick or parking break partition.

If I own my own self driving car, rather than summoning one, I think you'll see a big shift in designs because it will be your or your family's space.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by drdeadringer on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @12:57AM (#16481010)
I recently finished watching the anime "Legend of Galactic Heroes".

In an early episode, a character summons a roaming [empty] driverless hover-car taxi [hailed with a transmitting credit-card-sized hailing device no less] to help an injured compatriot on his way. Watching the scene was surreal; when it first aired no doubt it was totally SF, but now it's actually within the grasp of reality.

The entire vehicle's interior was, basically, Limo seating. No room for any driver at all. The car lands, they get in and close the doors, and the car takes off all 5th Element but driverless to their destination -- one character laid out injured, the other consoling and helping whilst sitting upright.

I just have to believe that interior configurations are going to change similar to this.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ForrestN on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:56AM (#16474534)
I don’t know about “dining,” but people here in Los Angeles eat entire meals while driving every day. Having hands free won’t necessarily be like hanging out at home, but there is a whole lot you can accomplish if you’re used to it.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by soheil on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:22PM (#16476897)
If anything it’ll probably be less likely for majority of people to eat for example while riding one, specially if there’re fleets that are operated by a company. Think subway, you’re not allowed to eat or drink, yet currently people do eat and drink in their personal cars.

If self driving cars are individually owned then there may be a trend towards a different experience but that may come much later after we have self driving cars hitting the road, as the cost and risk to operate one makes it unfeasible for the manufacturers to sell them at scale to the general public instead of operating their own ridesharing fleets.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by 282883392 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:56AM (#16474522)
Current cars aren't exactly designed for "leisure." In the future we will probably see more car designs centered around leisure such as sleeping, working, or eating.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by hammock on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16474122)
Not sure we have space for everyone to have a mobile home on the road. We hardly have enough space on the roads for the cars/commuters we already have.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by beobab on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:08AM (#16473934)
I really like this idea. I have had dreams of small self-drive RV's taking me to and from work whilst I read or play games for years.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by sgc on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:10AM (#16473962)
That will happen immediately for sure. Super tinted windows and a nice work setup in the vehicle will make society significantly more efficient. It will probably get sucked into corporate profit rather than improvement of lifestyle, but there is room for hope.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by volkk on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:19AM (#16474069)
i just wonder how that will affect the people (i.e me) that get very nauseous in cars, especially when looking down/reading something. i dont know the science but its a lot worse when it's stop and go traffic. can self driving cars be programmed to drive and react much smoother to help us folk that are sensitive to this?
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by drdeadringer on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @12:39AM (#16480931)
There is the short story "The Roads Must Roll" by Robert Heinlein which -- as a plot device or similar -- has these vast roads which enable such things as mobile restaurants. Some characters commute over a business dinner, for example.

We can see the beginnings of this for those of us who ride transit. Reading, "sleeping", A/V media on tablets/phones... and then to make-up and phone calls... anything reasonable and semi-reasonable in public that's not active driving [and non-reasonable for some of the fringes].

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by adrianN on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:31AM (#16474195)
Even though this is what car manufacturers might want, I think it's more likely that autocars greatly reduce the rate of car ownership. Why own a car when you can just call one whenever you need it? In this scenario autocars are more like Taxis or buses, i.e. not secondary homes.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by yndoendo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:39AM (#16474286)
Actually a self-driving RV is quite luring if one can work remotely. Traveling cross-country while not actually having to drive. Could see people making them their primary home.
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ggregoire on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:13AM (#16473997)
Would be better to fix traffic congestion. Like building alternatives to cars...
Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by ansgri on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16474113)
Like electric trains. And to make infrastructure costs low, make virtual trains of self-driving electric cars on dedicated lanes.

I really believe the US will get self-driving cars first, as a first form of pervasive public transportation. I call it a second-world technology effect: just like we in Eastern Europe have much better internet and cellular service (not to speak of online banking) because it was built after the first-world countries already heavily invested in obsolete technology, the US can use the latest technology (SDC) in building its first public transportation system.

Re:California to allow testing of self-driving cars without ... by eloff on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:01AM (#16474602)
The US has public transportation, it's just not as effective as it could be because most of the cities are designed around cars. SDC could solve the last mile problem (especially if paired with Musk's idea of underground high-speed sleds for cars.)