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Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by userbinator on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @09:47PM (#16426438)
The car of the future will sell your data and also be vulnerable to hackers, and extremely difficult or even impossible to repair.

I know a few others in the tech industry who also spend their spare time collecting and restoring old cars, as in made more than 50 years ago. Parts and documentation are surprisingly available, and there's an extensive aftermarket thanks to a general lack of DRM-ish things --- these were made even before microcontrollers, so they're as "unconnected" as possible, and anything that goes wrong tends to be a relatively simple fix. Manufacturers were more concerned with actually making good products than locking out competitors or planning obolescence. The lack of annoyances such as needing to wait for the radio to "boot up"[1] or controls hidden behind layers of menus is also a plus.

They may not be as safe, fuel-efficient, nor environmentally friendly as today's cars, but there's a certain amazingly pleasant and comforting feeling of freedom in driving one. It's hard to describe.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15934023

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by King-Aaron on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @03:23AM (#16427848)
> know a few others in the tech industry who also spend their spare time collecting and restoring old cars, as in made more than 50 years ago.

They don't even need to be 50 years old.

80's and 90's Japanese sports cars are my cup of tea, and mainly for the reasons you state. Even vehicles from the mid-to-late 90's that had OBD II connectivity are still relatively easy to fault find with. The ECU's are fairly basic generally, there's no outside connectivity apart from the obd port, and even if it's running a basic CAN-BUS in the vehicle, they don't usually have any DRM style nightmares in this era.

It's interesting too, that a car like a KP61 Starlet from the early 80's can achieve similar fuel efficiency as modern small cars, because what they lack in emissions control systems, optimised combustion chambers or direct injection (as examples), they make up for with a substantial lack of weight. (Mainly due to a complete and total lack of safety features haha!).

Though I think there's a lot to be said for keeping old cars running. You're not expending resources to build new batteries, mill new steel, and not contributing to landfill (or recycling byproducts and waste). I don't know what the direct environmental comparison is between running a car for 20 years and building a new car every 3-4 years (as is the common purchase cycle), but I would be under the impression that it would be comparable?

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by terrantech on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @07:01AM (#16428790)
I've got a Nissan C34 Stagea, and everything you say is so true. Currently working on getting the Nissan Consult system to talk to a RPi, then use K11Consult to make a touch screen dashboard with AFR/boost/etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cykgpQZ5iEU

I've loved 80s/90s Japanese cars since the 80s/90s, then got sucked into the social pressures and spent 5-6 years in a couple of different brand new cars. Last year after a horrific experience with a brand new VW (3 page list of repairs and replacements in the first year of ownership, they bought it back off us), it hit home how screwed we are when a modern car breaks. They're so complicated now, with so much electronics. They even steer and park themselves. You can't tinker with them, tweak the ECU to your liking, or fix things yourself. There's some you can't even service yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_YCC

Now I'm back in 90s cars. Something breaks? Buy the part on eBay and swap it out yourself. Anyone can do it really, they're such simple cars. They're still comfortable, have aircon, generally higher quality than modern cars, way cheaper, and they can't ever track/sell your data.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by rixrax on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @12:02AM (#16426985)
> The car of the future will sell your data and also be vulnerable to hackers

I see few things happening. There will be a time when modern connected car I own no longer receives software updates while it otherwise would remain a great daily driver. Each passing day it becomes more vulnerable to being hacked to perform variety of things. What is the level of risk that I am willing to accept before having to get rid of the otherwise good car since I no longer feel safe operating it? Eventually there will be an event where this risk gets realized. This will further hasten the move towards policies/legislation where private automotive ownership is no longer allowed and everything moves towards subscription based auto ownership. This will take longer in the US due to cultural reasons, whereas Asia and Europe will hesitate much less to implement this.

At which point I suspect also the data collected by subscribed automotive belongs to the vendor 'renting' it out.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @01:00AM (#16427209)
I think the trend will go even further where private autos are replaced with a fleet of automated taxis. Especially in dense cities, this would allow for more utilization and require less need for parking.

It really isn’t a new thing in countries where (non-automated) taxis are super common and private car ownership is much rarer (e.g. much of Asia and some of Europe).

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by ascagnel_ on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @08:12AM (#16429154)
> There will be a time when modern connected car I own no longer receives software updates while it otherwise would remain a great daily driver. Each passing day it becomes more vulnerable to being hacked to perform variety of things. What is the level of risk that I am willing to accept before having to get rid of the otherwise good car since I no longer feel safe operating it?

I had a laugh last night watching an episode of The X-Files. This is a show that's all about conspiracies and not trusting the government and relying on hackers, yet the show (likely due to a product placement agreement) had Scully conspicuously turning on a car's wifi hotspot and connecting to it. I'd think that the main duo of that show would be tech savvy enough to know that such a thing (since it's connected to microphones, cameras, GPS, and the internet) would be anathema to remaining clandestine.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by dredmorbius on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @11:14PM (#16426798)
John Wharton when at Intel was on the team that built a chip of which there are now more instances of than there are people on Earth (a description that's probably held true for several decades now). I'm not sure which it was, but he's worked on the 8085 and 8048 chips (see link below), though it may have been the MCS-51 (see Wikipedia link below). That's not the important part of this story.

What is, was John's telling of getting stranded with car trouble out somewhere in rural California -- central valley or the desert, pretty much the middle of no-where -- and ending up spending time at a local garage getting his car fixed up, and talking to the gearheads there.

They knew his chips better than he did, and had customised the living hell out of them. By John's own account.

I'm not convinced that this must be the inevitable consequence of Chipping All The Things, or that it's always going to be possible to reverse-engineer and hack everything and anything. And I've quite pessimistic about a great many elements of this trend, including what seems an inevitable conclusion that digitised cars will spy on and betray their owners (or more likely, merely users and/or occupants). That's a social and legal, not a technical problem, ultimately.

But ... there's some glimmer of light in history to date, as well.

(Accounts via personal conversation, though John may well have written this down or been quoted on it elsewhere. He's rather fond of the story.)

http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_Histo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-51#Enhanced_8-bit_bi...

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by neurotech1 on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @10:28PM (#16426610)
I actually think Open Source Hardware for cars will be more common.[0] Replace the Dash computer with an Android version etc. Renault are already looking into an open source car.

Comma.ai did an open source L2 autonomous driving system.

[0] https://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi-roundup/an-open-sour...

[1] https://comma.ai/

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by PinguTS on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @02:53AM (#16427720)
A car software is much much more than just the MMI.

A modern full-size luxury sedan has about 110 to 130 electronic control units from simple things like automatically open the doors and the trunk, to complex things like automatic beam light control (detecting obstacles that could be blinded so that this area is switch from high beam to low beam), automatic lane keeping, and even auto park.

None of those ECU is and will be using open source for various reasons.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by userbinator on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @07:06AM (#16428820)
to complex things like automatic beam light control (detecting obstacles that could be blinded so that this area is switch from high beam to low beam)

It's worth noting that manufacturers tried this before many decades ago, entirely without computers:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/great-info-on-th...

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by mrarjen on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @03:05AM (#16427774)
> The car of the future will sell your data and also be vulnerable to hackers

These hackable cars are not of the future, even many of today's cars can be quite easily hacked with some knowledge and the right tools. Luckily this doesn't seem to happen yet as far as I'm aware.

And I fully agree on repairing old cars and the passion that can be put in these machines. It's in a sense sad that cars like this don't get made anymore, but on the other side it's better for the planet.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by test1235 on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @08:24AM (#16429238)
Depends on what you mean by hacked - I know that for cars with keyless entry you can relay key-fob signals from keys inside a house to parked cars to get it open, then get to the cars software via the service port. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a viable method to steal a car.

https://www.wired.com/2017/04/just-pair-11-radio-gadgets-can...

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by greglindahl on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @11:37PM (#16435186)
My girlfriend had her car stolen from her driveway that way; the thieves disconnected the infotainment cellphone (dug under the dash to remove the sim card, probably) and it has not been recovered in 3 weeks.

Presumably it was a key amplification attack. And they knew what they were doing when it came to being tracked.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by analog31 on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @11:28PM (#16426849)
My 1980s bicycle is similarly repairable.

But I wonder if the repairability issue will eventually hit consumers in the pocketbook and drive demand. For instance, the risk that a car can't be repaired by an indie mechanic will dramatically lower its resale value.

An interesting opportunity might be for people to gather car performance data in real time, and tell us which brands and models have the best efficiency and reliability.

Re:The Car of the Future Will Sell Your Data by divanvisagie on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @02:50AM (#16427701)
/r/phonesarebad