Most of the developer salaries in EU would be below the scale in the bar chart "Programmers in 2015".

I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who can ask for more compensation than most traditional employees ever could.

Collecting that data and adjusting for the fact that contractors have to deal with more taxes and insurance, but less restrictions about vacations, seems impossible.

Being contractor in Germany one still pays the social contributions the same as a person on employment contract, it's hardly the lightweight variant. Contractor in large business in Germany is at the complete end of the development chain (hourly rates 30-80 EUR/h). Have some super old system in obscure technology/stack? Outsource it to PL/CZ/RO/UK. The super high earning rockstar contractors are some unicorns I'm yet to meet in my life.

Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it just shifts the burden to the contractor.

Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Speaking of which, I've heard third-hand horror stories of Polish SAP contractors where the middleman(!) made 65 EUR/h, which was probably more than half of the client paid - ouch.

> Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman.

Yup, I know some guys contracting in Germany at 100 EUR/h. I myself received an offer (not in Germany, but in neighbouring country) at 120 EUR/h. The EU contracting market looks pretty healthy to me.

Isn't health insurance, like, 100-200 month ??? You all acting like it's a big deal. (nl stats, student DE pays 80/month)

I'm probably overpaying because I stayed in a public (not private) health insurance plan, but I pay about 800€ a month, so close to 10k a year.

Probably 250/month for health insurance plus 20% pension contribution and few unemployment benefits.

Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. You can always find a job. Maybe unable-to-work (like accidents etc) insurance.

Sounds like you’ve never experienced a tech downturn yet. Having been through two (and there are folks on this forum who have been through more) I can tell you with great certainty that you are wrong. I have been close to broke twice and am eternally grateful for what little safety net actually exists in the US.

I always smile hearing this arrogant "programmers don't need unemployment benefits" or "programmers will always find a job". Not even tech downturn is necessary, just relocate (e.g. family reasons) to a different location where this profession is not appreciated, neither well rewarded.

.. so.. unemployment benefits will keep you forever when "profession is not appreciated" or you'll convert to a beekeeper or some other job ?

Unemployment benefits, as I know, are temporary. You'll face the real-world in 2-3 years when it ends.

> You'll face the real-world in 2-3 years when it ends.

Just enough to catch up with nuances between different Angular versions and experiment with all cool newest React stacks... or screw it... pulls out a manual on constructing beehives.

I would agree with you, but I lived through the dot bomb / 9-11. There are times when companies, collectively, decide to hold off on hiring for a few quarters while doing massive layoffs. Thats when the market gets flooded.

It's hard to imagine today, but it sure did happen.

> Programmers don't need unemployment benefits.

That's what the person at the (un)employment office said once to me. If you know how to count, count on yourself because most of the insurance contributions simply fall into a black hole.

"Assuming good programmers + assuming you have certain logical thinking skills outside of programming, like, say, don't live paycheck-to-paycheck and credit-lifestyle".. I just stay out of work until I find a better one with my savings. Worst case I find shitty work until better work.

> I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees

What does that have to do with what you should be paid?

My degree has provided a small and consistent boost over my career. It didn't make me significantly more valuable as a new starter.

I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials.

In the time it took you to gain four degrees an American dev could have gained 6-8 years of experience and be operating as a senior.

> What does that have to do with what you should be paid?

I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income.

> I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials.

I think so too. At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12. The main difference is that I had significantly more enthusiasm and energy back then.

I did learn a lot during my study, but it is absolutely not required for most of the jobs. Yet, it is required to have at least an undergraduate degree for practically all jobs. There are lots of improvements possible to this system if you ask me.

> I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income.

> At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12

Given the second comment I'm surprised that you have that expectation and I think it's heavily influenced by your culture.

In the states we don't care about effort at all. We care about outcome.

I think this leads to a huge number of efficiency gains.

I haven’t in my life seen a programming job that requires skills that are only available through university.

The only employers (USA) that I’ve seen even care about or ask about degrees are the ones that practice “alumni nepotism” (we only hire Stanford grads, etc.). Nobody else gives a crap.

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

This seems more sane IMO. The pay in the US seems just crazy. Programming an sich is absolutely not something you need an extensive training for.

On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of time and effort on my eduation. While I could not do this without financial support from my parents, I also made a lot of sacrifices, and I am a little bit bitter that friends who dropped out as undergraduate make more than I do. Makes you wonder why anybody would like to work in IT at all.

What did you study?

In the US, my salary was about that (6250 USD/month) straight out of university 12 years ago, but of course I only had 2 weeks paid vacation. I did get bonuses, but no pension.

IIRC taxes are slightly lower in Germany too. After putting the maximum amount into a 401(k) (self funded, pre-tax retirement) and paying taxes, I took home around $3500 per month, excluding bonuses.

That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)

And you dont have college debt and your kids will be able to study at college without debt.

College is inexpensive in the US. Even top privates are affordable if you choose an appropriate career such as software engineering at a top company, management consulting, investment banking, medicine, or big law. You don't spend 50k/yr at a top private school to be a school teacher unless your family is already very wealthy. Paying $30k/yr at even a top state school is not a good idea to enter low paying career fields. Most people major in fields that are an extension of general high school studies, these majors are traps and should not be offered as they do not provide additional earnings and only serve as a four to six year timeout from the labor force as well an employment program for professors.

I have multiple degrees from US schools and zero debt.

$56k in tuition, fees, and books to graduate from my alma-mater in-state at today's rates[1]. Tuition nearly tripled from 2000 to 2012 and then they froze tuition by reducing the number of slots for in-state students (thus raising the average tuition charged without changing the sticker price).

Also, most public schools will not hire teachers without a 4-year degree, so saying that those going into low-earning fields like teaching ought-not get a degree is questionable at best.

Hiring credentials is an arms race, so if everyone else is getting a degree you're going to have a bad time if you don't -- even for fiends in which no degree is logically required.

1: http://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsandfinaid/tuitionfees....

would you have any advice for new graduate entering the market? where to look for and how when searching for jobs?

From my experience so far (cs/ee, software developer): work experience is more important than grades, current tech stack, interested/knowledgeable in what you're doing, networking (xing/linkedin helped quite a lot), bigger company for the first role also helped with salary. started out with about 58k (~13.8 salaries + bonus + >40 vacation days), quickly went up to around 80k (2yrs)

Thanks a lot for the answer! By networking on xing/linkedin you mean that you were reaching out to people? Asking for positions?

Nope actually just being on there (with a current profile) helped a lot. Currently at least here in Germany there are a _lot_ of open positions in my field. At the moment I (as well as other colleagues I talk to) get multiple requests a week. There are a lot of uninteresting ones, but still..

Also: What's mentioned here: https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne...

6k is far above anything I have heard of yet. The boni sound like a big company, is this a software or industrial one?

6k is even above IG Metall pay schemes, you will never get 6k in Germany 3years after graduation. I call bullshit. It may be possible if you have a PhD or for some not engineering related reason are rising ranks very fast.

I know a few people across different CS disciplines in Germany and none of them has IG (i.e. union) based wages. €72k a year is realistic with 3y experience in southern Germany or one of the big cities. You can start at 50k if you look around a bit after Uni, no PhD needed. The step to 62k is then easily done by changing companies once after 2/3 years. That sector has seen a lot of wage inflation in recent years.

That's absurd I have multiple german friends >70k euro + all the other benefits. All stem yes but only 1 is a phd. Frankfurt, Berlin, and Stuttgart too so not just 1 isolated city.

6k base means 80k all-in/year which is the highest union level (e.g. IG metall EG17 in Baden-Wurttemberg). You can reach this level only on a specialist level (PhD) position, with very senior >> 3 years experience or as a manager.

It actually is a igm contract. Base salary + "freiwillige Leistungszulage". Also I haven't had significantly less in my last job (in the last position there). Also a lot of friends (engineers/Maschinenbau mostly) earn (at least) the same. All at around 80k (with a 40h work week) all in my age (i.e. around 3-5 years out of university). And yes, bigger companies.

6000EUR or 6000USD? If it is EUR then I can only say very well done! Can you please give us some subtle hint about company name?

EUR. Large industrial manufacturer. But as stated above, other friends working for Siemens, Bosch, BMW and the like don't earn less.

Europe does not value software or developers anywhere near the levels the US does. Other developed economies e.g, Australia, Canada and Singapore are closer to the US but still trail behind.

In Canada developers are valued for the same reason doctors are valued. If the pay is not good we can just move south of the border. In Europe you don't have that option and actually you always have the threat the company will just hire people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity.

Granted there are different shades of outsourcing/remote work, compensations are only decent in the context of local market rates but in no way they are proportional to the work being done. It is only fair due to lack of regulation in the space of international work.

Consider how basecamp works for example

https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d...

https://www.wageunion.eu/