News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @04:31PM (#16305043)
HA!

The 2007 documentary "The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters" is my favorite movie of all-time, I must have watched it at least 40 times. Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hBs2oFjSWk

For those who haven't seen the film, the contender Steve Wiebe sets a new record live at an arcade tournament in Funspot (NH) but reigning champ Billy Mitchell sends in a VHS tape with an even higher score.

The video gets fuzzy and looks suspicious but Mitchell's toadies in the group immediately accept the score, despite refusing to previously accept a VHS tape from the contender Steve Wiebe.

Since the movie came out both men were left in the dust by new players, but recently the score-keepers slow-mo'ed Billy's tapes and the Donkey Kong levels render the way MAME does them, not the actual arcade hardware. The current No. 2 ranked player (Wes Copeland) is basically corroborating this by running his performance through an app and determining the point ratios are off (e.g., too much from hammers).

Personally I don't think Billy's a bad guy, and the film actually shows him performing selfless acts for others, but if this allegation is true -- and it's hard to argue with the data -- I do think this seriously compromises his integrity and position in classic gaming history.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by sh33mp on Sunday February 04, 2018 @04:46PM (#16305113)
Here's a no-nonsense video chronicling the progress of the Donkey Kong world record: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQ2vEHq2N4

This guy has also made videos chronicling similar speedrun records for other games, and they're fascinating to watch.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Endy on Monday February 05, 2018 @02:18AM (#16307154)
Summoning Salt is one of the best gaming youtubers I've run across. He describes what he's talking about in both a technical and end-result sense, and really makes a viewer understand the passion for games that these players have.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by mrguyorama on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:17PM (#16311727)
I do wish he had a little more passion in his voice about the subject. It's obvious he is thoroughly involved and cares from the material, but it sometimes sounds like a recording of the absolute worst teacher you've ever had
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by dlbucci on Sunday February 04, 2018 @04:52PM (#16305135)
I just discovered this guy, Summoning Salt, this week and I cannot stop watching his videos! Super fascinating stuff :)
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by bobbean on Sunday February 04, 2018 @11:44PM (#16306653)
I made an account purely to express how strange it is that I just found this guy no more than a week ago, and now I'm seeing people talk about him somewhere that I never would have expected. It's weird.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by maaaats on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:34AM (#16307453)
The Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon?
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by bochengkor on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:15AM (#16307376)
reddit probably?
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @04:53PM (#16305142)
Great video, except it ends too early. Robbie Lakeman has twice now beaten Wes Copeland's high score, presented at the end of this video.

But still, great watching.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Sniffnoy on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:43PM (#16305393)
> The video gets fuzzy and looks suspicious but Mitchell's toadies in the group immediately accept the score, despite refusing to previously accept a VHS tape from the contender Steve Wiebe.

TwinGalaxies seems fairly shady in general. At least they recently revoked Todd Rogers's completely fake high scores.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:52PM (#16305436)
The founder, Walter Day, ran it from 1982-2010 (post King of Kong) when he sold it to focus on his music.

It's changed hands a couple of times since the but since 2014 it's been owned by Jace Hall, a video game producer in San Fernando Valley, CA.

If you believe Reddit gremlins he's the Worst Person In The World, but I have some sympathy for him, it's tough to adjudicate all of these disputes that can get super technical.

Who has the time for it? Even now that Jace is charging for refereeing, it's not a lucrative endeavor. But he had to know what he was getting when he bought it.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Sniffnoy on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:12PM (#16305503)
Huh, why is it the new owner that people are complaining about? Total outsider, but it seems to me that if anything the place is finally cleaning up a bit.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:42PM (#16305602)
One example is the Todd Rogers case (he's briefly featured in The King of Kong).

Todd claimed to take a polaroid of a score of 5.51 seconds on Dragster that Activision later "verified" (i.e. acknowledged).

Recently several independent gamers running simulation software demonstrated the score was impossible, that 5.57 is the lowest limit achievable.

But despite the mounting technical evidence Jace initially refused to take action, saying he'd wait a few months before deciding. Then 5 days later, after Rogers' friend and former TG referee Robert Mruczek (featured in KoK) wrote a long blog post basically saying Rogers was a cheater, Jace stripped Rogers of his scores and banned him from competition.

The criticism is that he wasn't fast enough to act on technical evidence but then arbitrarily relies on testimony from one person.

But again, I sympathize with the guy. To overturn a 37-year-old record based on what an algorithm says and what Activision itself said in 1981 is tough. If he acted right away that would have p* off others. It's a thankless job, IMHO.

But he had to know that when bought it.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Viper007Bond on Sunday February 04, 2018 @08:16PM (#16305950)
Really interesting video about that: https://youtu.be/8e-H4sEHB54
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by sillysaurus3 on Sunday February 04, 2018 @08:32PM (#16306008)
I came here to post that. It's fascinating. Why would anyone care so much about cheating in an extremely obscure arena?
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by oceanghost on Sunday February 04, 2018 @09:45PM (#16306271)
I've met Billy Mitchell. Everyone has.

You pretty much can't go to these events and not meet him. You walk into Twin Galaxies or Arcade Expo and he's standing there in a suit greeting people, selling autographs. That's his JOB. He's a brand. The only advertising for this brand is these stupid records. For Christ's sake, Adam Sandler riffs on him in "Pixels."

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Sniffnoy on Sunday February 04, 2018 @11:02PM (#16306518)
The comment you're replying to is about Todd Rogers, not Billy Mitchell.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by oceanghost on Sunday February 04, 2018 @11:52PM (#16306681)
Welp then I'm an idiot :)
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by sillysaurus3 on Monday February 05, 2018 @12:24AM (#16306802)
No, it was equally interesting. HN is much too strict about tangential comments.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by SmellyGeekBoy on Monday February 05, 2018 @04:02AM (#16307565)
Equally relevant too, given the parent comment.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by oceanghost on Monday February 05, 2018 @12:38AM (#16306846)
Thank you!
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by rhizome on Sunday February 04, 2018 @09:37PM (#16306244)
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by at-fates-hands on Sunday February 04, 2018 @08:46PM (#16306063)
For the attention.

He for sure took advantage of the situation and knew nobody could verify his claims. It wasn't until recently people have finally shown most of his scores are totally unattainable to begin with, something nobody could really refute until now.

It also makes Twin Galaxies look incredibly shady and their refusal to really adjust the high scores just makes it seem like they have some weird stake in it was well.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @09:09PM (#16306152)
Yep. You even see some of that in King of Kong when Walter Day says that Billy Mitchell is good for Twin Galaxies.

I'd say it's part naivete (taking friends at their word), part incompetence (not fully vetting scores, especially early on), part complicity (gaming heroes make them seem like a stable of giants). Hard to know what % of each.

It's an incredibly narrow band of fame, of attention, by a weird subculture that 99% of humanity pays no attention to, but for some people I guess it's important.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by cabaalis on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:18PM (#16305264)
That is also a favorite documentary of mine.

My shortlist of inspiring documentaries for people with startup/gaming mindsets:

- Indie Game

- Startup.com

- American Movie (Mark Borchardt has a thing or two to teach all of us about working hard to make dreams become reality)

- Ecstasy of Order: The Tetris Masters

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by eps on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:11PM (#16305497)
Heh... startup.com is the exact opposite of an inspiring movie. It's basically the "How not to do it" manual.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by cabaalis on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:59PM (#16305655)
At least inspired by their enthusiasm :) I've been on their side of the table raising money before, of course not to their level, but it brings those feelings to the forefront again for me.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by titanix2 on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:58PM (#16305653)
I watched it yesterday and the part about the video tape is unbelievable. How can a record like that be approved so quickly when it contains obvious flaws? Also not letting Steve watch it was a disgusting move. Anyway the movie was really interesting.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Pxtl on Sunday February 04, 2018 @11:47PM (#16306668)
Am I the only one who watches this movie and can't root for Weibe but instead am just crushed by the appalling sadness of it all? The guy's kids napping on the floor of the arcade, "kill screen coming up" and nobody cares....
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by sneak on Monday February 05, 2018 @02:08AM (#16307127)
The cringey nature of the entire documentary is why it’s wonderful. “Kill screen coming up!” was a punchline in my house for years after we watched that. :D
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by at-fates-hands on Sunday February 04, 2018 @08:51PM (#16306088)
> For those who haven't seen the film, the contender Steve Wiebe sets a new record live at an arcade tournament in Funspot (NH) but reigning champ Billy Mitchell sends in a VHS tape with an even higher score.

In the Reddit thread about Todd Rogers, someone pointed out how pissed they were when they would submit a score to TG for verification and then one of the guys there would say someone else just submitted an even higher score. As if every time a new high score was submitted by a newer player, the TG toadies would immediately put "their" guy's score up in an effort to keep newer players out.

Just all around shady stuff.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by userbinator on Sunday February 04, 2018 @04:53PM (#16305145)
and the Donkey Kong levels render the way MAME does them, not the actual arcade hardware

Then I guess that's another bug for MAME to fix...

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by jsheard on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:28PM (#16305319)
According to the original call-out post, MAME 0.127 and onwards are already much closer to real hardware: http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Je...

Billy Mitchell just happened to use older MAME versions without those improvements, even during his 1.062M run that was performed several years after MAME 0.127 shipped.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:01PM (#16305192)
It's not a bug per se, it's just different from the real thing.

An actual arcade board renders the levels with a "sliding door" effect, while MAME builds entire chunks of a level at once and then displays them as a complete screen buffer (depending on the version).

It's just evidence Mitchell's score is not what he says it is.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by userbinator on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:09PM (#16305224)
It's not a bug per se, it's just different from the real thing

If you agree with the premise that an emulator should strive to... emulate the real thing as closely as possible, then it is most certainly a bug.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by laumars on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:53PM (#16305442)
I don't think that is a fair statement. Often writers of emulators have to take low level shortcuts because the alternative is emulating the physical hardware in software - which is extremely slow. A "bug" implies that a behavior is unintended or undesired where as sometimes these kinds of emulator facets are deliberately implemented for the sake of simplifying the emulator design or just being about to use modern hardware to offload some of the processing (like a hypervisor would) rather than having to emulate every single transistor in a now defunct chipset.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by icebraining on Sunday February 04, 2018 @07:21PM (#16305737)
You're right that emulators in general may do that, but MAME in particular is designed to be a faithful reference of the inner workings of the machines. Being able to play games is merely a "nice side effect".

http://mamedev.org/about.html

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by PhasmaFelis on Monday February 05, 2018 @01:42AM (#16307067)
There's a pretty clear difference of opinion regarding the purpose of emulators.

The creators of MAME are mainly interested in rigorously simulating certain kinds of hardware which happen to play games, just as a classic car restorer may rarely or never actually drive his meticulous reconstructions.

For many other emulator devs, and almost all emulator users, the point of emulators is to play games. That may not be your area of interest, but it's rather silly to say that they're just wrong.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:25PM (#16305306)
Then yes. Although graphic loading sequences that can only be detected in slow motion seem a low-order bug -- in my book, anyway.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by grapeshot on Sunday February 04, 2018 @11:08PM (#16306536)
There are limits to this, as with everything. No one is going to make their emulator 3x slower to properly emulate one glitchy line in Super Mario Bros. that shows up on 1/3 of powerons based on a random clock alignment issue.

Besides that, the real console hardware could vary more between revisions than the difference between a console and an accurate emulator, so you also have to ask whose real thing is being emulated? Even with Nintendo's attention to detail on lot check, some real Game Boys won't play Prehistorik Man. There are some NES accuracy tests out there that require making your emulator behave like one specific console owned by blargg.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by rangibaby on Sunday February 04, 2018 @11:45PM (#16306661)
> No one is going to make their emulator 3x slower to properly emulate one glitchy line in Super Mario Bros. that shows up on 1/3 of powerons based on a random clock alignment issue.

This is exactly what BSNES set out to do. I think it's called Higan now > https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-...

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by grapeshot on Friday February 09, 2018 @11:25AM (#16341461)
Even byuu doesn't emulate this particular quirk, in general he doesn't seem to be pushing the bounds of accuracy for any system but the SNES.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by sandworm101 on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:56PM (#16305453)
Something that invisibly protects from the software being used to generate false records is more a feature than a bug. "Fixing" would damage classic gaming.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by LocalH on Sunday February 04, 2018 @10:04PM (#16306322)
I'm sorry, but are you really advocating against emulation accuracy on the grounds of classic gaming competition? I disagree entirely.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by sandworm101 on Sunday February 04, 2018 @10:14PM (#16306361)
Imperceptable differences that have no impact on gameplay? Sure. Leave them in. Unless you are playing on a vintage crt screen, these tiny slips are nothing compared to how diffetent modern lcds butcher classic games.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by SmellyGeekBoy on Monday February 05, 2018 @04:07AM (#16307583)
I run MAME in a converted cabinet with an ArcadeVGA card and vintage CRT. I appreciate their efforts towards accuracy, at least. Although I don't have the original cabs to compare so I also don't know any better. ;)
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by msla on Monday February 05, 2018 @02:15PM (#16311189)
The King of Kong is a seriously flawed work:

http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1303

> Too bad it’s loaded with falsehoods. And by loaded, I mean packed, and by packed I mean like the last Japanese subway car before they have to shut down the line. I have seen both the screener and the final work of this film, and then I spent a lot of time listening to a lot of people, people who should know about the events portrayed in the flick.

[snip]

> What I’m saying here is that a good percentage of what makes the documentary “good” are made up conflicts, inaccurate reporting, smoothed-over narratives that are meant to make you root for one side or hate the other, when in fact reality doesn’t hold up to these allegations.

The post goes into detail on specific things the movie got entirely wrong.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:49PM (#16313334)
I have to disagree. Maybe this is too much detail, but I want to wade into each one of the points of the post you reference:

> A core theme is that Billy Mitchell is an asshole, one who doesn’t even deign to spend time in the same location as Steve Wiebe and won’t even come in to eat lunch at the same table as him. In fact, Billy came in and paid for lunch.

One, the entire plotline about Doris setting a Q-Bert record was included to show some of the selfless things Billy does.

Two, Steve Sanders makes it clear in the restaurant scene that Billy "didn't want anything to do with Steve" and that he came "unexpectedly and uninvitedly." This is Billy's best friend saying this. The fact that Billy comped everyone's meal does not contradict these facts -- besides, it was his own restaurant.

Is Billy an a-hole? That's hard to say. But if the reporting in this ArsTechnica article is correct, Billy is at least a cheater and liar.

> Billy denies Steve the satisfaction of playing one-on-one on Donkey Kong. They’d played Donkey Kong one-on-one a year before the documentary was filmed at a previous championship.

The reason Steve wanted to play Billy publicly wasn't to play once and be done with it, it was to repeatedly show Twin Galaxy doubters that Steve was a consistently better player than Billy. If they wouldn't give Steve his score at least he wanted to show as many people as possible that he could play at or above Billy's level. I think Steve would have loved to play Billy 20 times because no one believed he was a million-point Donkey Player. Could the film have added, "We played once but I'd still like to play him again in front of everyone so the world can believe me?" Sure. But it's not some falsehood that compromises the film.

> It seems like Steve Wiebe finally gets a chance to top Billy and that same day, a videotape arrives and Billy tops Wiebe. Steve Wiebe already had the top spot in Donkey Kong, having achieved the record before the documentary started. The videotape that Billy sends in has a suspicious glitch. The videotape was a copy and the original was sent in with no glitch.

The point of this article is that Billy's videotape was indeed a fraud, so this "no glitch" defense doesn't hold up so well. Plus the bigger issue is that they denied the validity of Steve's tapes but blindly accepted Billy's tapes, an unfair double standard.

> Two representatives of Twin Galaxies arcade forced their way into Steve’s garage and looted the machine. Two members of the same social scene as Twin Galaxies and Steve were let into his garage by his grandmother, and asked Steve for permission to photograph the circuit board.

The movie makes it pretty clear what happened was disputed and tried to present both sides of the story. But at no point does the movie claim they "forced" their way in or somehow broke into Steve's garage.

> A number of insiders constantly appraised Billy on what was going on at the competition and took suggestions from him. Multiple times, the conversations being shown from both sides are not the same conversation.

What's the proof? Billy has made claims of selective editing but the producers deny them: https://film.avclub.com/the-king-of-kong-continued-donkey-ko...

Instead, this author says he is bitter that the King of Kong coopted his own efforts, now he can't make a documentary on a similar subject because people are afraid of being made out to be the bad guy. I quote, "And by doing this, he f* me, too. Doors that were open to me and my production are slammed shut."

If you have other arguments why KoK is a "seriously flawed work" then let's hear them, but the above points are not compelling, IMHO.

(I have no affiliation with the filmmakers, just a fan)

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Reedx on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:55PM (#16305451)
Love that documentary. Have you seen Chasing Ghosts? It's along the same lines and worth checking out -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJz8KIlEq7I
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Y_Y on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:32PM (#16305570)
That link didn't work for me. I bet it's because I'm not in the US. Anyway the net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it[0], here's a link that should work anywhere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RgSvWJOos

[0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Gilmore

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by daodedickinson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @07:18PM (#16305722)
Chasing Ghosts >>> King of Kong imo

The hardest I have laughed in my entire life was at the line "This is Christopher Lambert". That moment is absolute bonkers.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by JansjoFromIkea on Sunday February 04, 2018 @08:12PM (#16305928)
That was an early cut that leaked. Apparently the official cut removed that scene. Understandably considering it overwhelms the whole documentary.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by daodedickinson on Monday February 05, 2018 @01:25AM (#16306999)
It IS one of the best scenes in film history. But the whole film is great... did they really cut it? I know there are multiple versions, I never got to see the one that supposedly has a way better soundtrack, and I've seen it available on modern streaming services but never checked to see what version they had.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by Endy on Monday February 05, 2018 @02:17AM (#16307148)
You'd do well to look up SummoningSalt's video on the World Record Progression of King Kong. He actually discusses the issues with KoK, and several other concerns - and all of it with a genuine passion for gaming.
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by tootie on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:24PM (#16305548)
Wasn't that doc heavily criticized for very selective editing?
Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by ordinaryperson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:52PM (#16305634)
When the movie came out, Billy Mitchell claimed the tournament in Florida was edited to make him look bad.

Specifically, Billy had been conspicuously avoiding playing Steve in a head-to-head matchup in Donkey Kong, afraid he'd lose. When Billy does appear, he walks by, ignores Billy's greeting, then whispers to his wife, "There are some people I don't want to spend too much time with."

Here's the accusation from Billy and the rebuttal from one of the producers, Ed Cunningham:

https://film.avclub.com/the-king-of-kong-continued-donkey-ko...

"Ed Cunningham: Yeah, no, that didn't happen there. It didn't. At that moment, what we show is exactly what happened."

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by hitekker on Sunday February 04, 2018 @07:01PM (#16305662)
Yes, criticized by the person who has been exposed as a fraud and lost all credibility in the gaming community.

A.k.a. the subject of the article.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by jowsie on Monday February 05, 2018 @08:08AM (#16308512)
There are many things that can be disputed without having to believe a word he says.

For instance they played head to head at an arcade a year before the documentary started filming.

Re:Donkey Kong scoreboard strips high score claim by daodedickinson on Sunday February 04, 2018 @07:16PM (#16305719)
I don't like King of Kong at all. It's one of those documentaries that tries to ramrod reality into a feature film arc.

Chasing Ghosts: Beyond the Arcade, from the exact same year, which also features Silly Bitchell but a lot of other interesting characters who play other games from the same era, is my favorite documentary of all time, though.

Highly recommend that one, especially if you like King of Kong, but also if you are interested in MAME / arcade history.