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Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by joe_the_user on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:28PM (#16304022)
One consequence of defeating aging I haven't heard discussed is the tendency of society to become very conservative.

Even if someone's mind regains the flexibility of a 20 year old, it's hard to see how the lessons of a lifetime wouldn't lead to some fairly fixed beliefs. If you can a population with only a trickle of actually young people, it seems like the rate of change could become very slow.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by theothermkn on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:38PM (#16304072)
This is a very common trope, but it fails to address what might be the cause, rather than the mere correlation, of age-driven conservatism: imminent mortality. If you're 50 years in to an 80 year lifespan, it's more difficult to imagine starting over, with reduced vigor, to revamp your thinking and lifestyle. If there is essentially no increased risk of next-year mortality with age, and if we all have the stamina and energy of 20-year-olds, then there truly are no old dogs.

Also, I'd really like to hear this "tendency of society to become very conservative" fleshed out. I think you meant "as average age goes up," but I'm not sure why "society" gets brought into it. Aren't we pointing to a tendency of individuals to become more conservative as they age?

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by forkerenok on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:03PM (#16304218)
That's a very interesting perspective! Any particular reads inspired it?

Though I think "imminent mortality" is not the only thing at the foundation of age-driven conservatism. I think there is also tendency to follow paths of least resistance (energy conservatism): learning/discovering new ways of doing things comes with more friction (if one does not enjoy the learning/wandering process).

EDIT: I just realized that the two points are really intertwined. Time conservatism is closely related to energy conservatism and cannot be regarded in isolation. (forgive the awkward terms)

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by theothermkn on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:29PM (#16304373)
If anything, I formulated it–I'm sure it's not original–as a reaction against Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions and its nearly universal adoption by the worst kind of smug, vocal startuppity Silicon Valley types, who apply it to every objection to their newest pet projects. It just seems obvious to me how the fear and resentment of an imminent decline and demise transfers into one of the few places in an older person's life where they still have power, the dinner table and the voting booth. Aging is degrading and humiliating, and you're supposed to wear it with grace and dignity. And then the "news" guy on the conservative channel tells you about all the mistakes that kids and immigrants are making... Presto! Instant "conservative" harking back to an invented Golden Age.

> ...if one does not enjoy the learning/wandering process...

Or, if one does not perceive that the investment has time to pay off.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by marchenko on Sunday February 04, 2018 @03:01PM (#16304584)
The Book Algorithms to Live By describes some research which found that it is not chronological age, but rather one's position on the explore/exploit curve that drives the apparent conservatism of old age. So a 70 year old who expects to live 50 more years might be considerably more novelty-seeking than a 70 year old who expects to live 20 more years, because the first has a longer interval within which to exploit the benefits of any useful finds.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by theothermkn on Sunday February 04, 2018 @03:27PM (#16304711)
Hey! Thank you for your post! I was pretty sure I hadn't formulated something new, and it's great to have a new book recommendation!

The result you mention seems intuitively correct, and meshes with my own experience. The career changes that I'll consider in my 40s are definitely not the same ones I'd have considered in my 20s. There's no time!

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by jjoonathan on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:54PM (#16304541)
It's a general result. Same reason why target date funds shift to more conservative assets as they approach their due date. Recovery time hedges risk, the absence of recovery time promotes risk aversion.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by pmoriarty on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:49PM (#16304505)
"If you're 50 years in to an 80 year lifespan, it's more difficult to imagine starting over, with reduced vigor, to revamp your thinking and lifestyle."

It's not a disinclination to starting over that fuels (social) conservatism, but rather a yearning for an older, simpler, "more virtuous" time (one often that never actually existed, except in the imagination).

This is how you wind up with old people wearing clothes that were fashionable in their youth, still behaving in "old fashioned" ways, still consuming media from bygone eras, etc. Not that such behaviors and tastes necessarily make you a conservative, nor is this restricted to just old people. Some young people also yearn for the past, and enjoy affecting styles of dress and consuming media from bygone eras. But the cause of such sentiments is shared with conservatives: that is, it's a rejection of modernity and a yearning for a mythical past.

People who are "living in the past", as it were, or wanting to re-create the past in the present aren't interested in reinventing themselves or embracing the present or the future. If anything, living for longer is likely to exacerbate this. The feeling of nostalgia and yearning for an older time is likely to get worse, and the inability to cope with the modernity is only likely to increase (barring breakthroughs in psychology, sociology, neurology, or psychopharmacology that might make such coping with and accepting of the chaotic and ever-accelerating present/future easier).

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by theothermkn on Sunday February 04, 2018 @03:22PM (#16304684)
I dunno. It seems basically game-theoretic to me. The cost to a youth of adopting a "conservative" viewpoint is being outmoded for the rest of their lives. The cost to the elderly of keeping up with new technologies, trends, theories, and so on has to at least involve invalidating their lives and behavior, so far, and all for little or no real payout given the duress of aging and short remaining years. In other words, I'm hypothesizing that nostalgia is the effect of the underlying cause, "deterioration with age and short time horizon for payout." You're going to die, soon. May as well be comfortable.

As with a lot of tropes, we're having trouble nailing down terms, too. As you allude, we've at least meant a few different things by "conservative;" 1) social conservatism, 2) technological nostalgia, and 3) scientific conservatism. This seems to be one of those memes (I use the word deliberately as a "persistent mental structure or coding," separate from the term "idea.") that survives by coding multiple actual ideas. Not that you're doing the following, but reciters of the meme can always switch between ideas/fields when the current case becomes problematic. Societies don't become conservative? Well, what about Kuhn/Planck and scientific conservatism? Oh, scientists do actually adopt new theories late in their careers? What about people who restore classic cars? People buy new cars late in life? Well, societies become more socially conservative as the population ages. And so on.

One final point that, again, you're not doing right now, but I find ironic and amusing. Critics of life extension will oft lament that "mortality makes us human," and that we'll become inhuman monsters if we routinely live to be 1000. Then, in the next breath, they'll then insist that we'll behave exactly as if we died at 80 when it comes to things like conservatism, or reproduction, or career choices. But that's just the amusing part; the ironic part is that they'll do this at just about any age!

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by stevenh on Sunday February 04, 2018 @03:20PM (#16304673)
All of the older folks I know are stubbornly liberal.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by croon on Monday February 05, 2018 @11:19AM (#16309738)
> Democrats: 27% of Millennials and 21% of Gen Xers identified as liberal Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents.

> Nearly a third of Boomers (31%) and 36% of Silents described themselves as conservative Republicans or Republican leaners, which also is higher than in the past.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-part...

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by joe_the_user on Monday February 05, 2018 @12:06AM (#16306723)
This is a very common trope, but it fails to address what might be the cause, rather than the mere correlation, of age-driven conservatism: imminent mortality.

Well, the main factor I'd say is that being older involves having accumulated a lot "functional" opinions and solutions to problems. That is, a lot of approaches that may not be absolutely optimal but work (and which would require a lot of time to work out alternatives to - in the fashion it takes a lot of time to train a neural network). So basically, it is extremely difficult for those who have a fully functional coping strategy to go back to "not knowing anything" and relearn.

I mean, while most people are more flexible at twenty than at fifty, most people are more flexible at ten than at twenty and it would be hard to revisit the "personality choices" that happened at ten when you are twenty even when mortality is a ways a way.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by toyg on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:15PM (#16304283)
The idea does have some basis in empirical truth: in democratic systems, older groups are more reliable voters than any other group. As such, they are incessantly pandered to, and eventually society shifts.

There was also a recent study suggesting a link between successful efforts to reduce birth rates in China and their higher political stability compared to neighboring countries, because the young bring instability while the old like the status quo.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by draugadrotten on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:31PM (#16304388)
> ... it's hard to see how the lessons of a lifetime wouldn't lead to some fairly fixed beliefs.

As someone who has spent some time talking to several 80+ olds, my impression is quite the opposite. People are much more open-minded at 80+ than they are 30-60. With age comes wisdom and the ability to see what really matters.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by maxxxxx on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:56PM (#16304553)
I see that in my parents. They used to be very narrow minded but now in their end-80s they have a much broader perspective and openly regret things they did when they were younger.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by darod on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:30PM (#16304034)
agreed.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -Max Planck

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by joe_the_user on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:33PM (#16304049)
One approach that universities could use would be force a given professor to retire and leave their field after, say, 50 years, sending them to perhaps join a different field where they could have fresh insights.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by darod on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:45PM (#16304116)
This concept isn't applicable just to science. It's applicable to policy, politics, social opinion, etc. Young blood and new ideas are a constant threat to the status quo.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by gaius on Sunday February 04, 2018 @03:24PM (#16304692)
it seems like the rate of change could become very slow

No, the opposite would occur, because of the compounding value of experience. Imagine what engineers would be like with 10x the experience to bring to bear on any problem. Imagine the megascale engineering we could do.

But you don’t have to because we have actual evidence: life expectancy 1000 years ago vs now. Which society changed faster?

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by richardjdare on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:48PM (#16304130)
I always thought anti-aging tech should come with a mandatory course of ayahuasca to shake the belief system up a little.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by nezzle on Sunday February 04, 2018 @04:34PM (#16305058)
I, too, used to think conservative values were an old people thing, but it turns out that's not always the case. [1]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/07/white...

I think you maybe be on a bit of a red herring here. Yes, values vary by age group but I'm unconvinced that cohorts change predictably over their lifetimes especially if we consider a more international view.

However, values aside I think there is an impact from neuroplasticity in terms of how younger people adapt more readily to new technology, etc.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by DoreenMichele on Monday February 05, 2018 @12:27AM (#16306811)
One consequence of defeating aging I haven't heard discussed is the tendency of society to become very conservative.

Your most conservative groups are families with dependent children. Old people vote more consistently not because they are conservative, but because they have the time. They aren't working full time while raising kids, etc.

I see no reason to assume old people would be inherently conservative. Older people who are not risk averse may not look real wild because they know how to hedge their bets and how to explore what they want without calling so much attention to it. That isn't conservative. It's competent.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by narrator on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:09PM (#16304251)
Learning new ideas becomes harder as we age due to atrophy in the mechanisms of long term potentiation. If learning were easier in old age there would be a lot less conservatism and nostalgia among the elderly.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by toyg on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:24PM (#16304345)
Would it? As I get older, I can tell you that my feelings and thoughts are not really influenced by that; I learn as I’ve always done, by trying out stuff; and if it takes a bit longer, who cares.

Imho, a much more powerful force is the loss of innocence. You know X is bad for you because you experienced it before; so you don’t do X. And Y. And K. And slowly, you don’t do very much at all, except very safe boring stuff. You would really like to go back being a fearless child, but you can’t: even if your body could heal like it did before, your mind won’t forget all the stuff you went through.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by Retric on Sunday February 04, 2018 @01:40PM (#16304087)
This may be a better thing than you might assume.

Study history and you find regulations tend to be repealed as soon as their cause is forgotten. US fiscal policy for example was far more rational when people who remembered the great depression where still in control. I expect air quality standards to start to slip in about 20 years etc etc in an endless cycle.

Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by zaptheimpaler on Sunday February 04, 2018 @05:21PM (#16305281)
I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand its almost a contradiction to say that a mind regains its flexibility yet remains stuck on fixed beliefs. If rigid beliefs are the product of a rigid mind, then a youthful mind would not suffer from the same problem.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by jjeaff on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:28PM (#16304367)
Do we have any evidence that a more conservative society would be a negative thing?
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by yks on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:40PM (#16304457)
history? arguably, since Enlightenment we've been gradually giving up on conservatism and an average person benefits from that.
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by ginko on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:52PM (#16304523)
Another consequence would be that dictators like Mugabe could rule indefinitely
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by decorator on Sunday February 04, 2018 @03:28PM (#16304720)
Because being a dictator is such a safe job?
Re:Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging by BurningFrog on Sunday February 04, 2018 @02:30PM (#16304381)
That's theoretical speculation.

Empirically, as the average age of the population has increased the last 1-2 centuries, the rate of change in society has kept increasing.