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Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by EnFinlay on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @02:53PM (#16216966)
Reading your comment finally made it click to me why cryptocurrencies (specifically Bitcoin) are distinct from a gold bar or other non-currency stores of value. A gold bar is going to remain a gold bar forever, people's perception of its value will change even though the supply will remain mostly steady, but it will stay a gold bar no matter what.

Bitcoin may change in value based on perception, it's supply will remain constant after it has all been mined, but it's existence and integrity relies on a large network continuing to exist.

To put it differently, in 50 years a gold bar is a gold bar, but in 50 years a Bitcoin may have no value because everyone stopped mining and the blockchain was destroyed by 51% attacks.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by root_axis on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:00PM (#16217054)
> it's supply will remain constant after it has all been mined

Even this could change if the miners and thought-leaders decide that it should.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by WorldMaker on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:42PM (#16217474)
You can't hard fork gold, either. You don't suddenly wind up with two copies of a gold bar because someone decided to Xerox your ledger to start a new one.

The scarcity of Bitcoins is entirely a cultural delusion.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by milcron on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @05:06PM (#16218230)
If your payment is denominated in BTC, you can't pay it with BCH even though they're a fork of the same blockchain.

BTC proper is scarce, regardless of how many times the chain is forked.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by root_axis on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @05:27PM (#16218420)
And "BCH proper" has identical scarcity characteristics to BTC and it's not as if the creation of BCH negatively impacted the price of BTC - suddenly a new "scarce" token was created and everyone who was holding BTC before the fork is $1600 USD per coin richer today. The scarcity aspect is purely a social construct.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by WorldMaker on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @05:16PM (#16218327)
The distinction between "BTC" and "BCH" (and "BTCS" and "BCD" and so on ad infinitum) is cultural convention. There's no inherent technical merit (or alchemical nature) to one ledger over all other contenders, it's entirely a state of mind of its users.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by milcron on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @09:17PM (#16219808)
Yes and no. Once the blockchain forks, the distinction between all those coins is very technical. Coins from one ledger cannot be spent on another ledger.

You're right though, cultural convention decides which blockchain is the "real" Bitcoin. Most people are using BTC at the moment, but Bitmain takes payment exclusively in BCH.

This might seem like a semantic quibble, but I think it's important. There will only ever be 21 million BTC, and only ever 21 million BCH. If Bitmain decided to charge 22 million BCH for their latest ASIC miner, nobody would ever be able to pay that bill regardless of how many forks there are.

For a blockchain fork to have any value whatsoever, people need to want to own it. Bitmain ASIC sales are driving demand for BCH. Every other Bitcoin fork is doing rather poorly.

Forks aren't diluting the value of BTC, because people know that BTC is the real asset. Everything else is like fool's gold.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by root_axis on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @10:15PM (#16220032)
There is no intrinsic property that makes it "the real asset", it is a completely arbitrary distinction based on social coordination not on any fundamental property of the ledger.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by milcron on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @02:19PM (#16225479)
That's true. But regardless of which ledger is "the real asset", there will only be 21 million of that coin.

You can clone the technology, but you can't clone societal acceptance.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by WorldMaker on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @05:07PM (#16226798)
Only supposing there isn't a soft fork accepted by miners upping the maximum limit of coins.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by eric_cc on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @09:08PM (#16219764)
What you’re saying makes no sense and is in no way shape or form accurate.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by juancampa on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:44PM (#16218021)
Not refuting your point but this could also change for precious metals in the mid/far future: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining#Scarcity

"the relative abundance of asteroidal ore gives asteroid mining the potential to provide nearly unlimited resources, which would essentially eliminate scarcity for those materials"

Apparently with the lack of a strong gravity like Earth's to sink down heavy metals, they are way more accessible in smaller bodies like asteroids (Ceres and Vesta maybe?)

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by make3 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @06:17PM (#16218828)
I think thought-leaders just might be the cringiest buzzword being thrown around currently
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by EnFinlay on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:03PM (#16217080)
Haha, good point.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by emodendroket on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @02:55PM (#16217005)
To be fair, people could also stop thinking gold is worth much. Maybe a modern-day alchemist finally figures out the formula. I don't know. Probably far less likely than the Bitcoin scenarios though.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by michaelbuckbee on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:09PM (#16217143)
Consider aluminium. At one point it was more expensive than gold (due to mining+refining challenges). When those were overcome the cost plummeted to it's current "cheap" level.

Personally, I think a better comparison is to the diamond trade. Through a series of machinations (price fixing, artificial supply constraint, marketing) diamonds are deeply overvalued if you consider just the fundamentals of them - aka they're in a bubble. However, due to those same expertly administered steps they've maintained a high retail value for decades.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by emodendroket on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:54PM (#16217587)
Yes, I had the same thought about aluminum. Another example is, in older parts of the Iliad, iron is considered a precious metal, while in other parts it is not.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by vkou on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:22PM (#16217274)
But only a one-way retail value. No diamond dealer will give you anything close to their retail price, when you try to sell them diamonds.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by Brockenstein on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:42PM (#16217476)
Madden games have the same problem.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by emodendroket on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:56PM (#16217600)
I always wonder about this when I see films where criminals mastermind a plan to steal diamonds.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by vkou on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:57PM (#16218145)
Films also have criminal masterminds ask undercover police officers "Are you a cop?", followed by a tense musical score, and a close-up shot of the cop's face...

And a "Ha, ha, just kidding, of course you're not a cop."

Crime dramas and action films tend to have an incredibly poor understanding of money, crime, policing, and Newton's laws of physics.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by Trundle on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:40PM (#16217992)
Significant diamonds still hold their value when resold.

It's kind of like art. Spend $5k on some locals work and you might get $50 at a garage sale later on if you're lucky. Spend $5mil on a big name and you'll likely make it back, maybe profit, when you move it. The high and low end are basically different products that function differently in the market.

It's only shmucks overpaying for mediocre diamonds that lose out.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by caf on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @09:29PM (#16219855)
Kind of makes you wonder if some of those films are marketing for the diamond industry.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by kaybe on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:28PM (#16217879)
Maybe they have a diamond shop somewhere.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by emodendroket on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:44PM (#16218018)
I found that sequel to The Asphalt Jungle a bit less interesting than the original.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by jtbayly on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:00PM (#16217642)
Fascinating point. Could this hold true for Bitcoin in some way, in the future?
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by masklinn on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @02:59PM (#16217047)
> To be fair, people could also stop thinking gold is worth much.

They've already noted that:

> people's perception of its value will change

But as they say, a gold bar will remain a gold bar, until and unless it is actively destroyed. Not so for bitcoins, which only remain so as long as they're actively maintained (not just individual coins but the mining networks which allows the creation of new transactions)

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by mikeash on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:16PM (#16217215)
I’m not entirely convinced, although I’m partway there. When you “have” a Bitcoin, that means you have the private key to a wallet which the blockchain says has such-and-such amount in it. You can have that even if the miners all disappear. You can still use it to sign transactions, although they won’t get confirmed. You can even confirm them by mining a new block yourself with your transactions in it. (If all the miners are gone, the difficulty has hopefully dropped precipitously. And if not, you could always fork it to have a lower difficulty, since the only thing that stops forks currently is network consensus.)

This doesn’t sound super useful, but it sounds about as useful as a bar of gold in a world where nobody considers gold to be valuable.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by kibwen on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:38PM (#16217434)
> it sounds about as useful as a bar of gold in a world where nobody considers gold to be valuable

Nah, if civilization collapses then you'll still be able to use your bar of gold to bash in someone's skull and steal their canned beans (which, in the grim solar-flare induced darkness of 2020, will be worth their weight in bitcoins).

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by mikeash on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:45PM (#16217499)
Bitcoin wallets have to be stored on something. Maybe there’s an untapped market for really sturdy and massive hardware wallets.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by scoggs on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @08:31PM (#16219590)
You just sent me down a 3 minute rabbit hole / day dream about Wall-E, the last robot in the universe connected to the blockchain quietly and very easily mining coins from every type of crytocurrency created over the centuries since the early 2000's. Thanks!
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by bradjohnson on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @05:29PM (#16218441)
If the miners are all gone, there's nothing to stop malicious parties from doing 51% attacks and making the entire thing not only valueless, but also completely unreliable.

At least when you give a person a gold bar, you know that they now have the gold bar.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by masklinn on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:26PM (#16217312)
> If all the miners are gone, the difficulty has hopefully dropped precipitously

AFAIK there is no mechanism for the difficulty of new blocks to fall. And if the only use is creating transactions between yourself and yourself, well you can also collect gravel.

> This doesn’t sound super useful, but it sounds about as useful as a bar of gold in a world where nobody considers gold to be valuable.

Even in a sub-industrial context and ignoring pretty much all of human history and assuming your gold has lost all of its extrinsic worth, your bar of gold could be molded or cast into plenty of useful things (light reflectors, heat shields, baubles, weights). Bitcoins, not so much.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by clarkmoody on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:42PM (#16217477)
Difficulty falls when block times exceed 10 minutes over the adjustment period. It's happened plenty of times in the history of Bitcoin.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by mikeash on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:46PM (#16217522)
The catch is that the difficulty adjustment only happens every ~2k blocks. If a mass exodus of mining capacity happens really quickly, it could leave the network stranded. But if they leave at a reasonable pace, it will ramp down. That’s why I said “hopefully” before.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by emodendroket on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:04PM (#16217093)
I imagined that was talking about a certain level of fluctuation in the exchange rate of gold to dollars, not a radical change like happened to, say, aluminum (considered rare and precious at the time it was put on top of the Washington Monument; not so much today).
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by egeozcan on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:05PM (#16217102)
How do you think the story would end for gold, if it became unpopular and the exchanges closed? You can sell your gold bar, and you can sell your private key. I see them as the same and no, I don't own Bitcoins.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by masklinn on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:10PM (#16217148)
> You can sell your gold bar, and you can sell your private key. I see them as the same and no, I don't own Bitcoins.

If there's no support network for your bitcoins, their value is 0, exactly. Even if you assume people stop caring for shiny imputrescible metals, its intrinsic property (of being shiny and imputrescible) pretty much ensures there will always be some demand for gold, and thus it will keep a non-zero price. Possibly low, but not actually zero.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by egeozcan on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @05:11AM (#16221617)
I would say, the intrinsic property of gold is insignificant. Other metals which are naturally more abundant and in a usable shape would have more value, in other words, probably you would get more money by selling your monitor stand than a gold bar, if gold were to lose its scarcity.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by Jommi on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:57PM (#16217610)
But what does it matter which one has a larger "intrinsic value"? Both prices are determined more by speculation and group consciousness.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by root_axis on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @11:54PM (#16220423)
It matters because one is a physical object with static properties and the other is a digital abstraction with characteristics that can change arbitrarily based on network consensus. One is fundamentally a thing that can be looked at and held, the other isn't even a thing you can know you have without consulting a quorum of nodes about the status of the ledger (for all you know, you don't actually own any tokens because an attacker has stolen them)
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by Jommi on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @03:58AM (#16221332)
But what does that matter in a world where people spend numbers on a bank account, never questioning if the money is actually there or not? I fear you are putting too much emphasis on physical things, as if the quality of being "able to be touched" somehow matters in the modern world.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by root_axis on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @11:14AM (#16223819)
And? So what? A bank account is nothing like gold either so that statement is totally meaningless in the context of this thread.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @10:22PM (#16220060)
> But what does it matter which one has a larger "intrinsic value"?

It matters a lot of part of the reason to invest in them is as a hedge against general collapse of social institutions.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by Jommi on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @03:55AM (#16221329)
But are you really hedging against the collpase of _everything_ so that we are at a completely primative level. Or do we mean collapse as in another collapse of the world economy?

If you mean the former, then yes, gold is a good hedge. But if you mean the latter, then I would argue Bitcoin beats gold 100x.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @09:36AM (#16222966)
> But are you really hedging against the collpase of _everything_ so that we are at a completely primative level. Or do we mean collapse as in another collapse of the world economy?

The world economy has never collapsed, and if it did, it would be equivalent to the first option.

If you mean a short-term market downturn like the one that occurred with the ~2009 financial crisis, why would I even bother to hedge against that—and, if I did, why would I use an asset with high volatility to hedge against short-term market movement?

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by sumedh on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @10:14PM (#16220029)
I think the parent comment is implying that in a worst case scenario bitcoin will be 0 but gold will still be greater than 0.

During such times you need an asset whose value will be greater than 0.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by joshuaduffy on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:18PM (#16217231)
Just look at the gold price over the past 100 years, even the last 10-15 years have seen an modest increase. It will only go up & it is highly unlikely that it won't ever be perceived as the asset compared to other precious metals.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:28PM (#16217341)
> Just look at the gold price over the past 100 years

Or 2,000 years:

"the researchers look at pay for a Roman legionary, in the era of Emperor Augustus (27 B.C.-14 A.D.), who was paid a salary equivalent to 2.31 ounces of gold. A centurion was paid a salary equivalent to 38.58 ounces of gold.

Compared to modern US Army salaries, a private is making 20% more than the legionary, and a captain is making 30% less than the centurion" [1].

A counterpoint can be found in silver, where unexpected Spanish silver production in the New World prompted inflation around the world [2][3].

TL; DR For historical reasons, gold is grandfathered into our collective consciousness.

[1] http://www.mining.com/what-a-roman-centurions-pay-says-about...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/21/story-of-citi...

[3] http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/chinawh/web/s5/s5_4.html

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by banku_brougham on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:10PM (#16217733)
One of the properties of gold is that it cant be destroyed by chemical reactions. Physical destruction would amount to powderizing and dispersing over an area too wide to re-mine.

There are other ways though: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058150/

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by banku_brougham on Friday February 02, 2018 @03:50PM (#16294104)
FYI the link is to Goldfinger.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by Brendinooo on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:01PM (#16217069)
If someone discovers a huge lode or if something crazy happened like the US Government divesting, it could cause a pretty wild swing, in the manner of Mansa Musa's pilgrimage.

Guess it's one of those things that seems impossible, until it isn't.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by drewm1980 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:19PM (#16217806)
Gold is worth a lot less to me now that I've seen what illegal mining of it by narcos is doing to the rainforests in south america.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:34PM (#16217391)
Or we start mining exponentially more of it on asteroids. After all, more than 90% of the Earth’s gold has been mined since 1848.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by tuna-piano on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @07:28PM (#16219271)
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by darethas on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:55PM (#16217588)
It's more likely that technological advances in mining techniques allow us to extract the millions of tons of gold closer to the upper mantle.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by sonoffett on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:00PM (#16217053)
Or asteroid mining
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by jokermatt999 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:27PM (#16217329)
Asteroid mining would disrupt the market for many rare elements, but I think it could be less chaotic than people think. It's not going to be like the Gold Rush where a deposit was found and prospectors flocked to it. It'll be a massive undertaking, almost certainly with multiple nations working together to achieve. The time between the project becoming public and the resulting mined resources being delivered would give markets time to settle on a price.

That said, yes, asteroids mining could certainly affect the price of gold, but not necessarily destroy all its value. There's a price floor set by the industrial applications for it.

With BitCoin, there is no floor. If no one wants to buy your BitCoins, you can't do anything else with them. They are just data representing proof of work, but no outside value.

Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by roywiggins on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:50PM (#16217562)
Plus, in a world where you can mine asteroids for gold, suddenly there's potential for growth not only on Earth, but in the solar system at large, and there have to be industrial uses of gold on Mars...
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by emodendroket on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @09:16PM (#16219797)
It seems like it'd be hard for such a profligate use of petroleum to ever be profitable.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by TeMPOraL on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:43PM (#16217481)
Asteroid mining won't be able to significantly affect prices of gold downwell, definitely not until we bootstrap a real industrial presence in space - with the way we do space today, mission costs would eat up any profit you could make on shipping raw material down.
Re:Ending Bitcoin Support by desireco42 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:15PM (#16217199)
I think you are not taking into account 'internet time' ie. 2-3 years is huge time span. No one can predict what will happen in that time.