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Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by jordanb on Sunday January 14, 2018 @10:05PM (#16148207)
Speculation shouldn't drive up the price of rent. If anything, it should drive rents down because more units will be built to satisfy speculators which will then be contributed to the pool of available rental housing.

We saw this during the housing bubble: rents were detached from the price of housing and stayed low.

The problem here is that short term rental brings more revenue than long term rental. Before Airbnb you had to be a hotel to offer short term rental, so most landlords stayed out of that business and stuck to long term rental even though there's less revenue per unit.

But with Airbnb you can take your units out of the long term rental pool and put them in the short term rental pool, and because regulation has been slow to catch up, you don't have to take on the regulatory burden of being a hotel to do so.

Fewer units in the long term rental pool obviously, then, causes rents to go up.

Given that Airbnb makes units more valuable (by converting them to short-term rental and increasing the expected cashflow), they would of course then be more attractive to investors and that is perhaps part of the increase in housing prices in Vancouver. But even in that case the causality is increased rental cashflow driving up prices, rather than vice versa.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by dfee on Sunday January 14, 2018 @10:19PM (#16148256)
Your notion of “supply and demand” doesn’t allow for the predicates to the problem: new buildings are regulated through zoning and permits.

While life might be simpler with your model, it doesn’t fit reality well.

Here’s a decent analysis of the California situation with mismatched supply and demand and the headache that goes along with the state’s governance: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-home-prices-20170725-s...

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by MRSallee on Sunday January 14, 2018 @11:49PM (#16148554)
I'm not sure why you presented this as contradictory to the post you replied to.

> High prices (demand) attracting speculation (supply) should drive down rents (prices) ... [but they're not]

Should? Then why aren't they?

> new buildings are regulated through zoning and permits.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by tw04 on Monday January 15, 2018 @12:03AM (#16148607)
Because it is contradictory. Sure, in a vacuum where there's infinite land available and no rules, supply would meet demand. In a vacuum Antarctica would be a great vacation destination with amazing views of the ocean.

In reality Antarctica is freezing cold and difficult to get to. And in reality there is a shortage of places to build new housing at an affordable price in either location mentioned.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by MRSallee on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:32PM (#16155091)
If you think that is contradictory to the original poster, you might think they said something I'm pretty sure they didn't.
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by cgmg on Monday January 15, 2018 @02:43AM (#16149170)
Are you claiming most of that shortage is from physical constraints?
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by notatoad on Monday January 15, 2018 @01:41AM (#16148952)
>new buildings are regulated through zoning and permits.

yes, and AirBnB has built a business off ignoring those pesky laws.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by nathanvanfleet on Sunday January 14, 2018 @10:29PM (#16148293)
Speculation is not based on the market of people who want housing. Speculation is based on the price of housing going up consistently. Vancouver had the issue where many buildings were sold and kept completely empty. They were investment vehicles because the market was always going up. It wasn't to do with "how much you can make in rent" it was being able to invest large sums of money in a property.
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by maxxxxx on Sunday January 14, 2018 @10:14PM (#16148239)
In theory you are right but I think the problem is that a lot of property bought by investors stays empty so the rental supply goes down.
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by usaar333 on Sunday January 14, 2018 @11:07PM (#16148420)
Is this that common of an issue? I find it hard to believe that someone buying a property to maximize their returns (an investor) fails to increase their returns by renting.

(Though I could see people buying vacation homes, status homes, etc. doing this)

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by y4mi on Sunday January 14, 2018 @11:25PM (#16148469)
Buying property as a foreign investor is mostly an attempt to store your money in a pretty stable product.

If you were to let renters use that property and they don't take care of it properly, you'd have lost a lot of money. It's often just not worth the effort for these people.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by michaelchisari on Monday January 15, 2018 @03:46AM (#16149355)
There's also the upkeep and management costs of being a landlord. If you're a foreign investor, you have no interest in that. So you can either outsource it to a third party, deeply cutting into your rental revenue (and also being on the hook for any repairs required)...

Or you just sit and hold it. Maybe send in a cleaning and maintenance crew every once in a while to keep the dust at bay. Much less headache than renting.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by mercer on Monday January 15, 2018 @04:09AM (#16149424)
On top of that there's some pretty stringent protection of renters which can cause major headaches down the road.

Personally I'm inclined to be in favor of these protections, but I can also understand a wealthy investor wanting to take the hit of leaving the place empty to avoid these kinds of troubles.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by seanmcdirmid on Sunday January 14, 2018 @11:33PM (#16148490)
Depends on the property tax rate. That is definitely true in china where there is no property tax, but less true in the west given that high property taxes act to effectively deprecate your property yearly. If they sit on the property for 10 years and the rate is 1%, that is 10% gone, and it only gets worse as the property appreciates (well, outside of California).

Property tax acts as a stick to put property to productive use rather than just sit on it, otherwise the USA property market might be as dysfunctional as china’s.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by usaar333 on Monday January 15, 2018 @12:35AM (#16148708)
Do China's 70 year land leases not function as an equivalent to a property tax?
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by seanmcdirmid on Monday January 15, 2018 @12:46AM (#16148750)
Not really, because everyone assumes they will be easily and cheaply rolled over like they were done in Wenzhou a few years ago.

It is expected that the Chinese government will eventually abandon the land lease system and replace it with a property tax one. But they won't do so until the current bubble pops.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by nitwit005 on Monday January 15, 2018 @12:03AM (#16148604)
If you Google "warehousing apartments", you'll see quite a few stories.

Remember that renters can block your ability to convert the property to something else, as you can't instantly evict them, so the value of the property can be higher the more empty apartments there are.

In cities where there are businesses on the bottom floors, and apartments above, they sometimes only rent out the business spaces, as they lack the same level of legal protection from short term evictions.

Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by nerfhammer on Sunday January 14, 2018 @11:54PM (#16148573)
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by tialaramex on Monday January 15, 2018 @06:01AM (#16149806)
London literally charges money to people for leaving a residence empty. The intent was, foreign investors will now have a powerful incentive to lease out the property. Nope, overwhelmingly they just eat the extra cost.
Re:AirBnB units drop by 74% due to SF regulations by tehlike on Sunday January 14, 2018 @11:24PM (#16148468)
The zoning and building regulations usually restrict supply side of the equation.