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Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by niftich on Monday January 08, 2018 @12:52PM (#16098425)
A lucky set of circumstances led to the iPod dominating the digital audio player market: bold marketing, a smaller HDD form factor, high-speed FireWire connection, and a great integration story on Macs.

The Windows world at the time was a big mess of nonstandard cabling, messy drivers, sketchy quasi-shareware applications vying for presence on your desktop, while the Apple world was plug-and-play over a high-speed bus that came standard, and the music management experience was top-notch. And while there was some good hardware coming out of Korea to give the iPod a run for its money, the integrated Apple experience was without match.

For Windows, Apple bundled MusicMatch Jukebox at first, but then made iTunes available on Windows, which became their foothold that would later set up the iPhone for success.

By the time Microsoft caught up with WinXP and Windows Media Player, Apple had already stolen the higher end of the market, leaving WMP largely in the domain of cheap flash-based USB sticks that could only fit a subset of your songs. Then everyone pivoted to a DRM-laden storefront, making switching costs high. A later effort to refocus their first-party efforts with Zune resulted in an incompatible DRM ecosystem, and fizzled on the market.

The iPod, in many ways, foreshadowed the Apple tactic that would become famous from the later iPhone: take the state-of-the-art in a particular market, pare it down a bit, endow it with tasteful industrial design, make sure it has a strong, ideally "frustration-free" integrated environment to take part in, give it an upmarket but justifiable price, and market the heck out of it with aspirational brand advertising.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Eridrus on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:11PM (#16098563)
I feel like this is a rewriting of history. I knew literally a single person with a mac when the iPod came out, and they were not the first person I knew with an iPod.

My recollection of the time was that most MP3 players were based on Flash storage rather than HDDs, so I could get about 10 songs onto mine.

Macs didn't really take off as a thing until long after iPods had been mainstream for a while, so I don't think the integration was actually very important compared to the fact that there was a well known HDD-based MP3 player.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Joeri on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:34PM (#16098703)
Your recollection matches mine. I got my first 2nd gen ipod when I was using windows and when it still came bundled with musicmatch (which was worse than any version of itunes). Ecosystem was not a consideration, storage space and ease of use were. The huge screen, clean UI and clickwheel were a major improvement over contemporary mp3 players.

That ipod still works. Every once in a while I charge it and listen to the gentle clicking of its tiny drive.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by koyote on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:33PM (#16098695)
There were certainly HDD-Mp3 players around before the iPod (I used to own a Creative Nomad Jukebox and then the excellent Archos Jukebox which even allowed you to flash open source firmware on it).

I think the first Windows compatible iPod was the game changer. It had a large HDD but was much lighter and smaller than similar HDD-mp3 players at the time (such as the ones above).

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by astrodust on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:00PM (#16100502)
Apple might streamline their offerings, simplify them dramatically, but they also aggressively update it. Where the Nomad came out and was incrementally improved the iPod got re-invented several times, often cannibalizing its own market share in the process.

Part fashion accessory, part music appliance, part computer, the purpose of the iPod was understood by Apple and poorly understood by their competitors.

Just like how the Walkman wasn't the first portable cassette player, or even technically the best, Sony relentlessly innovated on that form factor making smaller, lighter versions, waterproof ones, and ultimately owned that market. It wasn't until the iPod rolled around that someone displaced that position so completely.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by mgr86 on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:20PM (#16100707)
you are correct. I was on my second HDD-Based mp3 player before the Ipod came around. I Also had the Nomad and replaced it with the Zen. Googling I see dozens of models, but I believe it was the Zen Xtra. I still have it in a box of old electronics.

I recall it being very difficult to explain to my peers what I was carrying. Thankfully the nomad looked like a CD player.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by FabHK on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:08PM (#16099134)
I got the iPod the day it came out in the UK (2001-11-22, London MacExpo, Islington), plugged it into my Mac, and in short order had all my iTunes music on it, including playlists (remember: iTunes was there before the iPod; Apple even had a "Rip, Mix, Burn" commercial [1]).

Sure, at that time, few people had a Mac, but certain demographics had it. And I distinctly recall that people in the office were curious about the iPod, and were impressed with the intuitive UI (with the physical scroll wheel, which was really quite nice - it had inertia and would spin a while when you spun fast).

FireWire, integration, and storage size ("all your music in your pocket") definitely played a role. Basically, if you had an iTunes library, the iPod was a total no-brainer.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ECN4ZE9-Mo

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by j45 on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:21PM (#16099304)
iTunes on Windows was generally better than most things on Windows. Musicmatch was pretty decent though.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by adamlett on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:33PM (#16098702)
The fact that you knew only one person with a Mac when the iPod came out really makes you rather unsuited to speak about what went on with the iPod in the greater Mac community at a time when the iPod was exclusive to Macs. You are falling prey to the availability heuristic[1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by qubex on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:09PM (#16099911)
That’s a very harsh statement. I was the only person I knew with a Mac when I started using them in 2002 (coming from OpenStep on an x86 machine, so hardly the prototypical ‘switcher’). It's probably fairly typical that in the very late 1990s or very early 2000s some high proportion of switchers (particularly those working outside of certain lines of work such as DTP or video editing) found themselves in contexts where they themselves were the only person on the platform, these people are literally those that jump-started the gradual shift towards the Mac as a revived platform.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Eridrus on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:05PM (#16099087)
Certainly, my point was that the Mac community was not particularly relevant to the success of the iPod, due to its small size, and the growth of the iPod far outpaced the growth of Mac computers.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by qubex on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:12PM (#16099952)
Enabling that supra-Mac growth of iPod sales was precisely the reason why starting with the iPod 3G Apple shifted from FireWire to USB and began supporting filesystems beyond HFS+.

(Off topic, but not that much: my sister grabbed her first iPod as a windows user approximately 12 hours after the 3G became available on the shelves here in Italy, mainly because she had been so envious of mine... so anecdotally there was quite a lot of pent-up demand, and they were smart to bottle it up to the point of explosion and then harness it.)

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Eridrus on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:16PM (#16100678)
Clearly there was pent up demand, my main argument is that "integration" wasn't the reason for the demand, as evidenced by the huge spike of iPod sales, rather than iPod + Mac sales.

I mean, I had a iPod, but I used 3rd party software to load it since iTunes was mess.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Someone1234 on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:15PM (#16098584)
> By the time Microsoft caught up with WinXP and Windows Media Player

Windows XP pre-dates the iPod. Windows Media Player pre-dates the iPod by over ten years.

The whole post feels like you've re-imagined a lot of the history, certainly much of it doesn't align with my experiences and impressions at the time.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by astura on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:20PM (#16098617)
It most certainly is a reimagining of history, everyone was using Winamp to play their mp3s when the iPod first came out in 2001. Winamp was the best, nothing came close to beating it. AOL paid $80 million for Winamp.

Meanwhile Apple had the monstrosity that was/is QuickTime.

The reason iPod was so popular was it's form factor/UI/UX/ease of use and the iTunes Music Store.

It also needed USB to become successful, FireWire held the iPod back from mainstream adoption.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by niftich on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:46PM (#16098824)
Winamp 2 was the music player of choice of discretionary users who knew to seek out software on their own. Winamp 3 came out and it was so colossally awful that most people stayed on 2.

If you bought your computer in a store -- like most people in the US at the time -- instead of building your own, it came bundled with some other product: WMP at least, possibly MusicMatch, RealJukebox (eventually merged back into RealPlayer), which you were likely using. Getting your Nomad or iRiver, a comparable devices to the iPod, to work with that, was not as smooth as the iTunes-iPod combo.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by seba_dos1 on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:09PM (#16099155)
Getting your device to work was just a matter of plugging them in and copying the files to the mass storage drive that appeared afterwards. From the most popular options, it was only the iPod that needed some special handling with special software to write to its proprietary database in order to listen to new files on your device.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by FabHK on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:11PM (#16099173)
> Meanwhile Apple had the monstrosity that was/is QuickTime.

Nope, Apple had had iTunes since 2001, and by the time the iPod came out, I for one had ripped most of my CDs to iTunes and basically used the Mac as the primary music machine.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by qubex on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:17PM (#16100008)
I vaguely remember that when my sister installed iTunes on her Windows XP machine, she also found herself lumbered with QuickTime... whether that was a sly bundling move by Apple or an actual dependency I cannot recall (or perhaps never really knew), but what does stick with me is how much regular grief it caused her.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by SllX on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:53PM (#16101015)
Actual dependency. Mac or Windows, QuickTime was the mechanism by which iTunes performed any playback at all whether audio or video. Anything that ran in QuickTime could theoretically also run in iTunes though if I recall correctly though, iTunes would still limit the file-types you could import into your library.

Even today, iTunes still depends on QuickTime, but given I haven't used Windows in almost ten years or seriously used iTunes in almost 8 years, I couldn't tell you whether that dependency is the old QuickTime 7 API or if Apple ported a subset of the newer QuickTime APIs over I also couldn't really tell you which they use on Macs* anymore either given I prefer to avoid launching iTunes whenever possible.

That said, iTunes up to about version 6 point whatever the last point update was, was genuinely a really great jukebox on Windows. It was easy to use, loaded fast, ran fast and I ran it nearly 24/7 on my old XP machine. iTunes 7 ruined all of that, and my first indication would have been when it took over an hour to complete the install process and the first run was dog slow.

* Apple did deprecate and remove QuickTime 7 from Mac OS X, that said, I wouldn't put it past them to maintain an API in maintenance mode exclusively for their own use, particularly when it comes to maintaining the many-heads of the beast that is iTunes.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by dkonofalski on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:09PM (#16099917)
XP and WMP might pre-date the iPod but they were useless in terms of media management and music syncing. For one, WMP default to the .wma format for audio which didn't work on any portable player at the time. You could switch it to use MP3's but you had to install an MP3 codec in order to get that to work and most users had no inclination to do anything of the sort.

I think the OP's point was that, while you could do this stuff on Windows, it wasn't nearly as functional, seamless, or simple as it was with an iPod and iTunes or even MusicMatch (which really, really sucked, at the time).

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Terretta on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @07:09AM (#16105534)
My recollection was Creative Nomad played .wma, which at the time blew away .mp3 quality.

And the Creative Nomad ZEN Xtra with 60GB was phenomenal for a reasonably sized library.

For software, I recall two options:

MediaMonkey Gold, a media player that synced with ZEN players and could automatically convert media formats.

Notmad Explorer, a software suite from Red Chair Software that allowed for file and playlist management for the ZEN players.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by throwawayfinal on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:50PM (#16098887)
Yeah, but those early WMP versions were just simple media players with really awful, clunky, slow syncing support.

Microsoft took about 5 years to catch up, no small part due to USB 2.0

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by johnchristopher on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:04PM (#16099072)
> Windows XP pre-dates the iPod. Windows Media Player pre-dates the iPod by over ten years.

XP was released on 25th octobre 2001. First ipod 2 days before, on 23th october 2001.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by niftich on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:52PM (#16098913)
XP shipped with WMP 8, but WMP 9 was the landmark release that brought more ripping options, star ratings, a quick navigation screen, and essentially made WMP into the product that is familiar to many from the XP era.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by astura on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:57PM (#16098984)
Except literally (almost) nobody used windows media player to listen to mp3s. Certainly nobody I knew and the majority of my friends are not "techies." Whatever windows media player was doing is not really relevant.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by niftich on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:09PM (#16100611)
In 2000, the streaming media player market had RealNetworks in first place [1] with 12% market share, Apple with QuickTime in second at 7%, WMP in distant third at 3%. By 2004, QuickTime had over 36% share, WMP in the lead at 38%, RealPlayer just shy of 25% [2]. WebSiteOptimization.com's January 2008 report [3] about streaming media players uses data sourced from Nielsen for the years 2003-2008 that shows the steady rise of iTunes, the flat trends for QuickTime and RealPlayer, and the more modest growth but higher absolute numbers for Windows Media Player.

Clearly, the install base of these products significantly contributed to the software people used to manage their portable music players. In May 2003, a Nielsen report put Winamp's install base at 5.5 million, Windows Media Player at 43.1 million, RealNetworks at 26 million, and QuickTime at 13.5 million [4][5].

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/10/business/technology-micros... [2] http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-product-marketing-says-qu... [3] http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0801/ [4] http://www.zdnet.com/article/music-players-market-share-wina... [5] https://www.cnet.com/news/aol-trumpets-new-winamp/

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Terretta on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @07:16AM (#16105581)
I wouldn’t put too much stock in those figures, especially Nielsen. I was in the streaming industry at the time, built the world’s largest Windows Media streaming network. I agree with other comments here, people largely didn’t manage media libraries using WMP.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by icebraining on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:36PM (#16098718)
FireWire was irrelevant; the iPod sales only picked up when it got full USB support in 2004: https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/images/192/...
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by jccc on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:17PM (#16098592)
> A lucky set of circumstances led to the iPod dominating the digital audio player market: bold marketing, a smaller HDD form factor, high-speed FireWire connection, and a great integration story on Macs.

Which of these four things are lucky circumstances and not the product of smart, consumer-thoughtful, hard work on the part of various teams at Apple?

Why is it that Apple has been "lucky" in this way so many times when so many other companies could have won instead?

> Apple had already stolen the higher end of the market

Stolen? I realize this is just a turn of phrase, but I think it does reveal a strong bias that sees a market win by Apple as illegitimate.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by pilsetnieks on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:44PM (#16098800)
I'm not disagreeing with you but the small 1.8" HDD was kind of a stroke of luck. Rubinstein stumbled upon it visiting Toshiba, who didn't even know what they could use it for, but without it, there wouldn't be an iPod as we know it.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by ant512 on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:49PM (#16098865)
Before I bought my first iPod I got a Sony Network Walkman NW-E3. It was about the size of a packet of gum, had 64MB of flash memory, and was so unrelentingly awful that I swore I would never buy another piece of Sony hardware. I don't remember ever feeling so furious about any other purchase I've made.

That the iPod dominated the industry really shouldn't be a surprise when Sony was producing junk like the NW-E3.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by dmitriid on Monday January 08, 2018 @01:30PM (#16098681)
> A lucky set of circumstances led to the iPod dominating the digital audio player market: bold marketing, a smaller HDD form factor, high-speed FireWire connection, and a great integration story on Macs... Apple bundled MusicMatch Jukebox at first, but then made iTunes available on Windows

That's a heck of a lot of "lucky circumstances" to call it "lucky circumstances" ;)

I'd say it was a lot of hard work delivering on a (rather novel at the time) idea that may or may not have worked. All that effort paid off in the end. Same goes for iPhone.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by untog on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:07PM (#16099117)
> high-speed FireWire connection, and a great integration story on Macs.

These two, at least, aren't it. The iPod only became truly successful once it had a USB connection and a Windows client. Before that point it was a total niche product.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Fnoord on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:32PM (#16099469)
> A lucky set of circumstances led to the iPod dominating the digital audio player market: bold marketing, a smaller HDD form factor, high-speed FireWire connection, and a great integration story on Macs.

The best thing about the iPod was its usability (the scrolling wheel). Mac integration is pretty irrelevant since almost everyone had a PC back in those days.

I had an iRiver H340 [1] back in those days (~2004 or so). It had decent hardware keys for control, and a whopping 40 GB of space (with a 2.5" HDD). iPods back then had a fraction of that. The iRiver h3x0 could play both MP3 and Ogg Vorbis. The battery would last long enough for commuting back & forth. But it didn't have such a scrolling wheel. Nor did it have any of the DRM garbage. Nor did it receive any of the marketing or hype the iPod had. You could however just download a bunch of MP3 from a.b.mp3.* or whatever and fill your device up. Back in those days, it was even legal to "download" in my country. Or you could use EAC to rip a bunch of your CDs and have it with you on the go in a more portable... "format". Oh, and it had USB OTG. You could also pimp it with unofficial open source firmware, Rockbox [2]

Quoting Cnet's review from 2005: "It's just not as out-of-the-box simple as the iPod. If this all sounds discouraging, just remember: the H340 does so much more than the iPod." and "It's noticeably thick, not to mention heavier than it looks. (In the world of gadgets, a few ounces or fractions of inches make a difference.) The overall look is utilitarian although the color screen does add some style points. We like to call the H340 the "Soviet iPod."" [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iriver_H300_series

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockbox

[3] https://www.cnet.com/products/iriver-h320-20gb/review/

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by mikestew on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:40PM (#16100281)
By the time Microsoft caught up with WinXP and Windows Media Player

"Caught up"? The steaming pile that Microsoft call Windows Media Player is the sole reason I ever bought an iPod. Synching was barely worthy of the word, getting music on any of the "Plays for Sure" devices was a pain in the ass, random shit just didn't work (I recall making a playlist was damned near impossible), and to put the cherry on top, all of your Plays for Sure surely didn't play after they shut that store down. Please note for the record that I was a Kool-Aid guzzling Microsoft employee at the time. Any sane person would have given up on the first try.

So one day the wife and I headed to the local Apple Store and hooked ourselves up with a couple of Nanos. The lack of friction made long-term customers out of us.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by lobf on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:40PM (#16100882)
It was all about the interface for me- and the fact that I could turn the volume up / down, and play / pause through the outside of my pants pocket. That was THE killer feature.
Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by Const-me on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @09:22AM (#16115059)
Microsoft and macs were completely irrelevant.

The main competitor for Apple’s iPods was Sony. And the reason why Apple won is the fact that Sony also includes Sony Music, i.e. insisted on DRM. I think that’s why minidiscs didn’t really took off.

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by scarface74 on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:35PM (#16099509)
A lucky set of circumstances led to the iPod dominating the digital audio player market: bold marketing, a smaller HDD form factor, high-speed FireWire connection, and a great integration story on Macs.

How is great execution "luck"?

Re:Goodbye iPod, and Thanks for All the Tunes by niroze on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:27PM (#16100763)
Pretty much all of this is fiction.