> I mean, who uses touch screens for development?

Web developers who want to test using real touch input events rather than the quirky emulation found in a few browsers.

If you're developing for touch, in particular things like drag & drop, you want a real device.

Even if you have an iPad or smartphone test device too, it is nice to have that ability on your main development machine rather than jumping around.

eh? You're not running Android on iOS on the thing. It's still emulation (or "virtualized" environment), and it's still largely going to be crap.

Windows touch devices are a device type we target.

Typically testing using Chrome on Windows using a touch screen gives you a reasonable frame of reference for how iOS and Android behave since all are WebKit-like (at least until fine tuning, when you're of course testing on real devices).

For mobile websites it would trigger the same browser events, right? Don't think they're referring to native apps.

seems to me that a touch screen laptop is a real touch device with browsers emitting (afaik) the same real touch events. as such it would seem to be better for tuning behavior compared to a laptop without real touch events. (of course it's best to have actual devices around for testing.)

I find that the chrome emulator works pretty well. Haven't had and issues.

It's kind of amazing in the browser (both Chrome and Edge, not Firefox). For regular apps it doesn't matter as much.

I have previous generation XPS 13 Developer Edition with hi-res touch screen. I chose the touch screen mainly because of the high resolution it provides however while using it I realized that touch screen can be quite useful sometimes. My best use case is reading long documents while commuting by train with the laptop in my lap. I find swiping with my thumb much more convenient than scrolling or pressing up/down keys. Not that it is a killer feature but still nice to have.

Out of curiosity (and not looking for an argument about it): Doens't two-finger scrolling feel just as natural/comfortable?

Try pressing space (or page down on keyboards with pg down).

I can understand the OP's thinking, although I have Lenovo's Yoga 2 Pro.

With my laptop in my lap, I typically have to be leaning back to comfortably use the keyboard. Sitting up or slightly leaning forward, it's more comfortable to grasp and scroll with the screen itself, maybe bent a little further back than typical usage. It's a more comfortable resting position.

Although sometimes I just flip my yoga into a tablet and that's just swell

Many times touch is more convenient than the trackpad especially when I am feeling lazy. I am reading this thread on a Y2P, lying on my side, laptop on the bed, one hand supporting my head and the other scrolling the page on the screen. Much easier than any other method.

when in tight vehicles (or even lying on a bed/couch), the spacebar is highly inconvenient (and often requires changing your grip of the laptop). I have used pg up and pg dn on laptop keyboards that put them in their proper place (top right by hinge). I agree with parent that touch screen is particularly nice for this (and I also never thought I'd appreciate it)

Spacebar/pgdwn is a harsh context break for me. There's no continuity like a book or touch screen

> harsh context break for me. There's no continuity like a book

more than a page turn?

I find the continual swiping distracting. And it's a much more complex motion (akin to a page turn) and must be done more frequently than paing. A tap of the space bar is about the simplest motion, and (except in cases of bad page design) gives a clean "start at top for next page" rather than trying to figure out where on the screen your next line is.

Preferences vary, obviously.

> more than a page turn?

Yes, a page turn with a book gives you a very specific place to continue. Spacebar or page down doesn't.

Touch screen is a big con for me. I've had an xps 13 for a brief time one year ago. It was the QHD model, I wanted the resolution. Well, the screen isn't bright enough and there is too much glare, almost like a mirror. It drains the battery faster, even if you disable the touch sensor. Although the colors were nice, white areas would look dirty, like there was some grayish pattern, probably the sensor grid. All this just drove my OCD crazy and I sold it.

Agreed, I had the 2015 model for personal use and bought the 2016 model for work: I got the QHD screen on the latter, and while I appreciate the screen quality, I really don't think it's worth it.

> I mean, who uses touch screens for development?

Co-workers are less likely to touch it and leave marks, that's the only upside I see.

> I am otherwise actively looking for a laptop.

I got a X1 Carbon a few days ago. I'm pretty content so far.

Beautiful machine. Whilst my primary is now a 6 core/32gb desktop, my laptop is the OG X1 Carbon from 2011. I was waiting for the initial release and might have been the first to order it in Australia. It is still looking great today (chassis looks as if it could be just a few weeks old, true I've looked after it but it's also just that solid/high quality panels), although the new is of course hugely improved.

Their i7 only had 4GB of memory, so I got the i5 version with 8. Unfortunately - or actually, fortunately - there was a bulge in the chassis that tech couldn't get out so ended up returning the unit, and by that time the i7/8/256 was just around the corner so arranged for that to be the replacement.

Unit still works today, and I'm very glad I got the i7 CPU now. Much snappier than the i5, even though battery life took a big hit. On top of that, battery is worn out. I am probably going to look for another replacement battery soon, and am keen on a 2018 upgrade, but anyway for short development stints including Docker it is great. Keyboard is top of the class, so is the track pointer (which I love).

The upcoming 2018 version (8th Gen Intels) is expected to have 4/8c which will be fantastic. Sadly only 16gb memory, but Docker has kind of shifted my requirements there vs Virtualbox. (Perhaps I'll wait for a version where Intel has sorted their Meltdown issue.)

> expected to have 4/8c which will be fantastic

What do you mean by "4/8c"?

4 cores (8 hyperthreaded)

I've just had a look at the X1 (UK site). Annoyingly you have to have the most expensive model if you want 16Gb of RAM.

I'm confused, it sounds like you want a European keyboard layout, and the European configurations go up to 16GB with a normal display:

> i7 | 16GB | 512GB | FHD non-touch (1920 x 1080)

System76, specifically the Galago Pro. I want it because Linux runs well on it, it has 8th gen i7, 16gb ram, and a 4k non touch screen.

But only US layouts. European, specifically scandinavian and UK layouts, have 1 additional button, so labels cannot fix it either

I'll be honest, I'm still confused why the European 16GB non-touch xps13 configuration doesn't work for you...

Edit: ohhhh! You want non-touch but 4k. Now I see! But if it's paying for unwanted touch functionality vs a US keyboard layout (not to mention the vastly inferior design and size) then I know what I'm picking.

I just mention System76 because they have exactly what I want, but I have no way of being able to use it. I'm kind of bitter about it.

But yeah I'm getting sold more and more on the touch screen, honestly. I think gestures and such have the potential to be neat, and could optimize my workflow.

Being able to move and resize windowed stuff in i3, something I have bound to mouse keys at the moment, would be really neat with a touch screen. Makes the desktop seem tactile and real. It is a pain to move them with key presses, so I usually move my hand to the mouse anyhow.

Gestures, like some tap or something to move a window out of the scratchpad, and back to tiling mode or whatever. Neat. Though the keyboard combination I use now would probably be faster.

In addition, as Someone1234 pointed out, native touch events would be really nice to have when doing web dev. I for one constantly use the Chrome mobile emulator. Native would be better.

I think his primary goal is to mention system76 much as possible while pouring scorn on dell

Lol, scorn, that's a big word. I dislike System76 because they refuse to support European layouts. US only. I am very bitter about it.

I dislike most laptop manufacturers of this day, because they all either:

* Only make touch-screens in 4K

* Don't let you upgrade your RAM.

* Only sell with Windows bundled. Not paying for Windows, no thanks

Dell satisfied only one of those criteria. They are very high in my book. In fact, I am using one of their 4K monitors right now.

I'm glad the Dutch never widely adopted a different keyboard layout. Vowels with diacritics and the € are entered using a software method (dead keys, compose key, etc.) on a standard US keyboard layout.

I agree with you on System76 though. I am in the process of being a Galago Pro, but I really wish they'd open up or partner with a reliable distributor in the EU to lower shipping costs, provide localised keyboard layouts, and avoid having to pay VAT at the door.

Check out tuxedocomputers, you can get a danish or swedish layout and configure the laptops to your liking. They use the same barebones System76 uses.

Thanks, will do

ggsdata.se sells the same laptop with Swedish keyboard and Linux pre installed.

Does the Galago Pro have a TPM? Their website doesn't mention one, but not having a TPM is just silly.

Anyone doing mobile or web development?

It's sorta unfortunate that folks consider touch screens to be a useless luxury. I suspect if folks didn't, a lot of small X11 utilities would be easier to write.

I don't think anyone considers touch screens to be a "useless luxury"; the problem is that touch screens are also pro-glare, and that's actively harmful. I like 4k, and touch with a matte display would be unobjectionable, but any display that's not anti-glare is a big cup of nope.

> I don't think anyone considers touch screens to be a "useless luxury"

FWIW, I do. My current XPS 13 has a touchscreen which I would disable even if it didn't have so many downsides (battery, glare, etc). I'm pretty damn efficient with a keyboard and occasional mouse usage, and I don't really find a desktop touch screen to be at all desirable.

I got the touch screen for the better resolution. I also disabled the touch screen capabilities by toggling an option in BIOS

> I mean, who uses touch screens for development?

Not touch screens per se, but I was considering the XPS on the basis that the screen is sure to be more rugged than a regular one.

My problem is that every laptop I had eventually developed these white pressure spots on the screen.

The 4K resolution is a huge bonus as well. Haven't been able to go back since going to 4K. It has the same vertical resolution as a 2K monitor on its side! Can't go back.

I'm extremely happy with my Thinkpad X1 Carbon 4th gen. That's my second ThinkPad, absolutely perfect for development, great no-nonsense laptop, works flawlessly with Ubuntu. Highly recommend it.

I have used exclusively ThinkPads with Linux for about a decade, and tried switching to the XPS 13 for my last two computers. I think it's a shockingly well designed machine.... On paper. The bezel improvement is incredible, my battery life is insane, but there are just two many things broken with it for me to bother.

1) Both chargers failed after less than a year

2) Wi-Fi and suspend have been a consistent problem (even on the Developer edition that came with Linux! Did nobody at Dell try connecting to the internet or suspending? It's a fucking laptop!)

3) Their "premium support" was worse than useless (I ended up spelunking through dmesg and firmware files and fixing it myself)

4) constant coil whine

5) a TouchPad that loses its mind a few times a day....

I had all of these problems on BOTH machines. The design is so good that it's _almost_ worth it, but I'm pretty confident I will never buy a Dell product again. Back to the X1 carbon for me.

> I mean, who uses touch screens for development?

Touch screen is very helpful if you do not plug a mouse. Not just for web/mobile apps.

For scrolling the console lines / codes, it gives you a better feeling than finding the correct Fn-key combination and location of the PageUp/Down keys. The scrolling using a touch screen is definitively not comparable with the two-finger gestures on the touch pad.

Selecting a window / moving window around is also more comfortable with a touchscreen than using the keyboard or touchpad.

I agree, I bought a laptop a few years back and it came with a touchscreen display. The only time it was of any use was when the Linux touch-pad drivers started playing up.

The main reason for putting touch screens on laptops is that Windows 8 - 10 have an interface that is designed to be tablet friendly, at the expense of being desktop friendly. So it is easier to do an occasional touch gesture to do certain things. Also, things like kinetic scrolling is easier with touch. With a mouse, you have to click the button, move the mouse, then unclick while the mouse is sill moving. Much easier to just flick the screen with your finger.

But I thought XPS developer edition was supposed to be aimed at Linux users, specifically Ubuntu.

I use i3, which would (edit:) not benefit from the touch screen from the get-go. Maybe I could configure it to react to touch events in a cool manner, like moving windowed stuff around with touch. Resizing with two fingers.

That might actually be pretty cool

I have an older Dell laptop with a 4K touch screen running Fedora 27. The touch screen works very well with Gnome and Chrome. So Linux users can get the same benefit that Windows users get.

well, as a developer they're giving you additional hardware to develop against so there's that case. But I think from the business standpoint, it probably doesn't make sense to have specific configurations for DE when being at or close to 1:1 with their Windows counterparts is probably easier in production.

System76 sells Clevo laptop. You may find what you need in other resellers. I bought this one myself: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/defianceIII-15/

There's no simple/easy way to disable the touchscreen in Linux distro's, too.

If you're okay with scripting it, you could just `xinput disable ...` the touchscreen's input device.

You can just turn it off in the BIOS.

Find the touchscreen id:

> xinput list

Then:

> xinput set-prop <device-id-here> "Device Enabled" 0

Can add it to .bashrc

Isn't the touch screen supported by a kernel module like in previous generations? If so, it could be blacklisted, inserted/removed or deleted...

There's Tuxedo in Europe, apparently they have similar offerings as System76.

But only in the US. For some reason there is a 16GB European version.

If you go with the precision line from small business it's the same hardware, but with much more customization

These things should be using m.2.

"Who uses touch screens for development?"

I do! While the kids were watching TV, I was sitting next to them coding a personal project. As I was scrolling through documentation on the web, sometimes it was just easier to use the touch screen than to use the trackpad. I remember thinking to myself, "Whoa, I didn't think I'd use the touchscreen on this laptop".

If I had my quiet space with an actual keyboard and a mouse, I would not use the touch screen. But I no longer have that luxury and I found myself appreciating the touchscreen on my laptop.