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Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @02:15PM (#16054517)
This article is talking about analytics. Analytics will have a marginal impact at best on reducing poverty. Of course people working in analytics have been benefited by it through the income it has given them, but the cumulative effects of analyzing data will not lead to some epiphany that will help us to end poverty.

In order to bring about structural change of the scale needed to end poverty, we need to reach levels of technology, productivity and social organization that we have not yet reached today. We will not ascend to this level by analyzing some set of socio-economic data. We will reach this point by building machines that can do work for us and automating entire supply chains so that labor no longer impacts production costs.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by knieveltech on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @02:42PM (#16054830)
We already have sufficient technology, agricultural & manufacturing output, and logistics in place to feed, clothe, and assumably shelter every human on the planet. Social organization away from surplus value hoarding by big capital seems to be the key missing piece of the puzzle.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @02:51PM (#16054930)
I agree that novel social partnerships will need to develop, but I still think large increases in productivity and technical capability are necessary.

For example, the total amount of wealth in the world is about 250 trillion USD according to Credit Suisse. There are about 7.5 billion people in the world today. 250T/7.5B = 33,333 USD per person. This really isn't that much wealth per person. So the total amount in existence still needs to increase dramatically.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by knieveltech on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:12PM (#16055114)
Given we've either already destroyed or are in the process of destroying every major marine fishery on the planet and something like 40% of the total dry land area on the planet is currently used for some form of agriculture it seems pretty plain that we cannot sustainably support the current global population. You sure that massive increases in global wealth and not a reduction in global population are what are called for?
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by paganel on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:14PM (#16057187)
> Given we've either already destroyed or are in the process of destroying every major marine fishery on the planet

Partially related to this, but my parents live in a village on the Lower Danube (the second largest river in Europe, after the Volga). I remember that when I was a kid (in the '80s) you had no problems catching enough fish during a day in order to feed a family of 3 or 4 if you wanted, and even sell something on the side for some extra cash (not much, but it mattered). I remember my uncle telling me that back when he was a kid (the '70s) the fish resources were even more plentiful, as in whenever the river was flooding the marshland-like areas he and his friends would go in there and catch the fish using their bare hands.

Nowadays you can barely catch a fish. Some former colleagues of mine spent an entire day trying to catch something in the Danube and at the end they hadn't catch anything (bare in mind, they were using more modern tools compared to what people were using back in the '70s and '80s). The struggle is real.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by _coldfire on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:24AM (#16058943)
Highly recommend Four Fish by Paul Greenberg, does a good job showing all sides of the fishing industry and the projected future if we keep going the same way.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7347759-four-fish

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by boubiyeah on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:12AM (#16059165)
Thank you for bringing back some sanity. Exponential population growth is not sustainable and will only make the poor, poorer (or not as poor but at the cost of health, etc).
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by Amygaz on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:53PM (#16056100)
It's actually a huge amount of wealth per person.

1st, you do realize that you include babies and elderly in that 7.5B?

2nd, you do realize that if we were living like touaregs instead of north americans we would all feel like f'ing rich with $30k?

3rd, and, spinning this back to social partnership, we could very well live in a world with no money, or at least a society in which money is not the only measure of contribution (i.e. where narcissistic douches like the donald wouldn't be seen as useful contributors).

(edited layout only)

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:18PM (#16056339)
But I'd much rather live like a North American than a Tuareg (I take you to mean the Berber people called the Tuaregs).

I like my central heat and air conditioning, and Netflix, and Spotify, and my comfortable and spacious car, and my ability to use air transport, and the restaurants that exist to serve me delicious food, etc...

Come now, we're human beings! The world is our domain! We should be working to create more things for more people, not settling for less!

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by titzer on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:14PM (#16057186)
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. If you are being serious, then mind taking a moment to consider your impact on the Earth? It's kind of in a bad way right now.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:26PM (#16057263)
I'm not being sarcastic at all. Whatever damage humanity is doing to Earth now in pursuit of material comfort will be quickly healed once we transition to more sustainable sources of energy. The Earth will be fine, it's very resilient.

Living well and living sustainably are both important, we don't have to sacrifice one for the other.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by titzer on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:51PM (#16057399)
Well I disagree on all the above points, and there is a lot of evidence the Earth is having a really tough time dealing with our massive destruction of habitat, production of CO2, toxins, pollution--especially pesticides--overfishing, overpopulation, and overconsumption of every type of food. Ecosystems are in freefall, insects are disappearing, ecosystems are unraveling, the ice caps and Greenland and nearly all global glaciers are melting, the ocean is full of trash, and parts of the planet are likely to be uninhabitable in a century or two. This is not normal. Thousands of years of human history and it's come down to less than a century of industrialized fuckery to create a situation where a very ugly collapse increasingly looks inevitable.

And then you talk about living sustainable. Well buckle up, your lifestyle, and mine--I dunno for sure, since you mention Netflix and traveling I assume you are a relatively normal middle-class or upper-middle class westerner--are going bye bye. It simply does not scale to 7.5 billion people, so we are all are either going to have check out early without having kids or find a way to maintain our lifestyles using less energy, less food, less travel, and overall fewer goods, and then explain to our kids how they are going to have make do with even less than that.

The fantasy of a tech utopia run by machines on sustainable energy and the environment being all rosy like in the movies is just not going to happen. Unless we invent the Matrix--in which case, we'll all probably gladly enter it.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by hueving on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:26AM (#16058952)
>the Earth is having a really tough time

Pointless statement because you are anthropomorphizing the planet. The only way the plan ceases to exist is if we manage to blow it up. Otherwise it's fine. Be more precise in your words.

>the ocean is full of trash

Again, it's not full. Don't be hyperbolic when convincing someone of an argument.

>It simply does not scale to 7.5 billion people

There is no evidence of this. The lifestyle of a vegan westerner who does not travel frequently scales extremely well.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by knieveltech on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:57PM (#16067366)
You're seriously going to attempt to advance the claim there is no evidence to support the assertion that global consumption doesn't sustainably scale to 7.5 billion people in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (you might want to look into Global Warming and the anthropocene mass extinction as a start) and then have the cheek to claim veganism is some kind of magic bullet? I'm guessing you aren't conversant with what percentage of total global consumption of fossil fuels is used by the agricultural industry, either as fertilizer or as part of the sow->harvest->packaging->delivery pipeline. You also really won't enjoy a clear-eyed examination of the impact of the agricultural industry's use of pesticide and herbicides.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by hueving on Sunday January 07, 2018 @11:41AM (#16091411)
It's almost as if you didn't read my post. We will be able to sustain our population pretty easily because we can adapt, farm further north, use more energy, etc. If anti-science people would stop blocking nuclear energy then we would have a clear path to low emissions energy for the entire planet.

If by 'sustainably' you mean some hand-wavy 'no impact to anything on the planet' then no, we cannot. We will certainly need to farm a lot and that takes land which will displace something.

Also, the ecosystem of the planet itself is not sustainable because of the competitive and evolutionary nature of life. Even without humans, animals and plants continually go extinct and have mass extinction events and yet life continues.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by knieveltech on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @10:03AM (#16158636)
Your assertions are faith-based unless you have a plan for what we eat when (for example) pollinators go extinct? You cannot simply handwave away a collapsing ecosystem.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by boubiyeah on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:15AM (#16059176)
The earth never had to face a menace so great as the homo sapiens though. Will it be resilient enough? What's good enough? that we and our debilitated livestock survive this technological "transition"? Is living in such a world even worth it for your kids?
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:20AM (#16059192)
> then mind taking a moment to consider your impact on the Earth?

The Earth isn't a being with a utility function, you can't have a beneficial or harmful impact on it, only on people who attach positive or negative value to certain conditions on the Earth.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by ErikVandeWater on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:16PM (#16055157)
I would like to pick your brain on this - what number for wealth/person do you think would be a big number? What catches my eye about this is if everyone were a doctor right out of med school, the world's net worth would be negative, but everyone would be fed and clothed and be rich in 10 years. I'm not sure wealth per person is a great way to measure economic prosperity. If you have lots of wealth, does that necessarily translate to more income down the line?
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by colemannugent on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:28PM (#16055875)
>if everyone were a doctor right out of med school, the world's net worth would be negative, but everyone would be fed and clothed and be rich in 10 years

If everyone were a doctor that skill would be worthless. People are (mostly) paid according to the amount of value they bring to a company. That value is relative to others in the industry. Knowing how to competently use Microsoft Office (which puts you ahead of 99% of the world population) gets you nowhere in a AI focused startup because it doesn't make you more valuable to them.

>I'm not sure wealth per person is a great way to measure economic prosperity. If you have lots of wealth, does that necessarily translate to more income down the line?

I totally agree with you here. The metric I think matters more is relative wealth. Say you are a software developer making $120,000: in the Silicon Valley that is about average, but in Kentucky that is three times what the average person makes. So in SV you live a "normal" life, but in Kentucky you are decidedly upper class.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by Amygaz on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:17PM (#16056318)
MDs are as valuable in the North America are they are in Europe, they go to similar training, and enrollment numbers kept arbitrarily low. Yet they are paid a lot more in the US and Canada that they are in the UK or France. And we all know that cost of MD has minimal bearing on total the cost of healthcare, which in itself has minimal bearing on the relative healthcare efficiency.

I am ambivalent about the relative wealth. I think it is fair and helps, up to a certain level, but globally, money attracts money, which means that certain people, with certain background and certain jobs would be deemed worth leaving in California. And this relative wealth-based system is already in place (e.g. designers in Cuppertino, IT in N. Dakota, assembler in Shenzhen).

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by ErikVandeWater on Thursday January 04, 2018 @10:49AM (#16071215)
> If everyone were a doctor that skill would be worthless.

The point you made was 100% correct, but that wasn't my meaning. I said right out of med school because I meant to focus on the problem in terms of cash flow - you can be in heaps of debt but still be well off. If the world were in huge amounts of debt (negative wealth) it seems like it could still be well off.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by titzer on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:10PM (#16057166)
> In order to bring about structural change of the scale needed to end poverty, we need to reach levels of technology, productivity and social organization that we have not yet reached today.

They been sayin' this since the wheel, methinks!

Jesus said, "The poor will always be with you." Not being a Christian, I still see the wisdom in this statement.

In wealth-oriented societies, rich people have been fighting a war to get rid of poor people since the beginning of time--throw them in jail, lock them in ghettos, deport them, wall them out. The structural change needed is in people's attitudes, society's values, not our technology.

It's getting worse, not better, and the more hopes we pin on our techno-fantasy, the harder the crash is going to be.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by unclebucknasty on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @09:17PM (#16057746)
>In wealth-oriented societies, rich people have been fighting a war to get rid of poor people since the beginning of time

Would only quibble in that it's not getting rid of them that's the general goal, but leveraging them for their own benefit (which in some cases might involve the former).

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:39PM (#16057330)
But you're leaving out the fact that the average person is much better off now, materially, than they ever were in the past.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by titzer on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @07:57PM (#16057427)
The average person might be a little better off than a decade ago, but the gap between rich and poor keeps getting wider, and even worse, the poor are actually getting poorer. If the rich get even richer, the average keeps going up, well done!
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by nightski on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @02:23PM (#16054598)
Do you know of any resources that explore this potential in depth (books, articles, etc..)? I'd be very curious. It's one thing to just say "building machines that can do the work for us" but what are all of the implications of this? Will the machines self maintain? Will they build themselves? How would we avoid needing massive teams of people to maintain all of this technology? How would power management and costs work? Even if it is semi-fiction I'd love to read others thoughts on the subject.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @02:41PM (#16054825)
The future I and many others envision is one in which that's all taken care of by machines. From power generation to maintenance, etc.

I believe we have yet to fully appreciate the ability of a developed economy to produce jobs and work for people to do. Even if we automate the entirety of the food production, mining and energy generation industries, new forms of work will spring up to absorb anyone that may have been displaced by automation.

Whenever some work is automated, people insert themselves on top of that layer of production to form a new layer. This process continues ad infinitum. At least that's been the case for the entire history of organized human society.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by Razengan on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:42PM (#16055430)
We should really review the idea that everyone should “work.”

If machines are doing everything, and I’m not taking resources away from anyone else, why should I work?

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by nightski on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:51PM (#16056618)
I understand what the future you and others envision is (it comes up on HN all the time). What I was asking is if you have any references to someone who has actually thought very deeply about this to see if it is even feasible.

It's easy to just say machines will take care of everything. That is a long stretch from it actually happening and I think there are many fundamental problems you'd encounter trying to achieve that. Just looking for books, novels, whatever that might explore the idea a lot further.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by mtkd on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:07PM (#16055640)
Everything I see around AI/ML is nothing but bad news for entire strata of current vocations. Once the algos get fully optimised to point of diminishing returns - data scientists etc. will become just another unemployment stat too.
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by madenine on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:41PM (#16056541)
Every time I see an article talking about how we're going to destroy the economy by turning fast food workers into kiosks and replacing teamsters with self-driving trucks... I just think how much easier it is to replace the average white-collar worker.

Accountants, corporate lawyers, clerks, receptionists, schedulers... so many jobs that will either be eliminated or made so that 1 person can do the work of 20, leading to outsourcing and consolidation.

'First they came for the accountants, but I did not speak out because they were paying me really well to design weak AI to replace the accountants...'

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by mtkd on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:02PM (#16056712)
I've lost the link, but I read a thread recently with doctors laughing at the idea they could ever be replaced with anything related to AI.

The 1 in 20 left - is so clearly going to happen to that profession - I suspect they'll be hit harder than truck drivers.

Once you get every symptom, every generic fingerprint, every prescription and every outcome for a decade in to a TensorFlow model - it's going to smash current results.

It won't be guessing at 100mg or 200mg, it will be prescribing 127mg/day for first week, and 122mg/day for the second - a year later it will bring that advice down to 126.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by myaso on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:08AM (#16061523)
This is an utter fantasy. Small scale limited scope tools being rolled out to augment diagnosis -- Yes. AI doctors -- No :( Also the data is probably mostly shit -- physicians are fallible and like all people potentially incompetent or negligent -- these trends would be reflected in whatever historical data is used, that inefficiency would simply be made much faster with automation -- which is why they will try it first in India before it is ever approved on Western soil.

On the other hand a RL system that pokes and prods a living persons brain with electrified needles and uses a conv net to watch for feedback from the resulting facial expressions is completely possible -- with enough training experience anybody could convince me of anything using it. One 30 second session to ensure a lifetime of compliance and happiness -- the promotional material can have a guy drinking a glass Kool-Aid with a look of tranquil bliss on his face.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by sorrymate on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:02PM (#16055041)
Analytics plays an important role in decision making and understanding. And in fact the cumulative effects of analyzing data has lead to greater efficiency in countless areas of manufacturing[1], better healthcare/patient outcomes[2], and evidence based policy making[3]. Higher levels of technologies, productivity and organization don't just happen by reaching and thinking really hard. Smart people are looking at the data and doing analytics to see how they can improve their processes. Analytics are corner stone to better technology, productivity, and systems.

And sure, you can make the argument that charts and graphs themselves will not end poverty. But your missing the point. You should be asking what arguments you can make with those charts. They are often made to help you make a decision. Like everything, finding small improvements will help us understand what is working and what isn't. And with that information we can build better systems with the goal of reducing poverty.

[1] https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/operations/our-i... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2659/ [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/09/08/...

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by dqpb on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:54PM (#16055521)
The point of analytics is to create knowledge. So you're saying either that you don't think analytics produces knowledge, or "Knowledge will have a marginal impact at best on reducing poverty".
Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by meri_dian on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:58PM (#16055559)
Not all knowledge is useful or productive. If I decide I'm going to count every single hair on my scalp, I've produced data, I've done analytics on my scalp, but the knowledge I've created is not useful.

It's clear that analytics creates knowledge, but from what I've seen that knowledge isn't always helpful.

It really must be judged on a case by case basis, but analytics often just confirms what we've already known or suspected. We already know that mental illness is responsible for homelessness. The utility of additional analytics here is probably marginal. What is needed are treatments and cures for mental illness itself.

Re:A.I. And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty? by rm_-rf_slash on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:20PM (#16055774)
Bingo. It’s like the “nudging” trend that’s been floated around in political circles. While it offers measurable improvements from existing processes, it is in effect a tacit admission that our societies are structured poorly and we have neither the collective will nor the imagination to reinvent our ways of life.