News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by closeparen on Friday December 29, 2017 @08:45PM (#16033301)
Online banking isn’t a serious attack vector for fraud, it’s just a faster-updating alternative to a paper monthly statement. 2FA is a silly red herring in these discussions. The problem is fundamentally the transaction model where you pull money from someone’s account simply by knowing some widely-shared secret numbers. These systems are sticky due to network effects. There’s no reason to sign up for an alternative to Visa/MC or ACH when your counterparties aren’t going to.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by RandomInteger4 on Friday December 29, 2017 @09:44PM (#16033515)
When you say fraud, do you mean theft or identity fraud? 2FA is extraordinarily relevant when it comes to theft with regard to online banking. The purpose of 2FA is mostly to prevent automated attacks or remote account entry via password resets by email or something similar.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but Europe has proper 2FA in the form of a dongle type device, and not this SMS BS many companies in the US use out of laziness. They also need to use this device for not just online banking, but basic everyday transactions.

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by closeparen on Saturday December 30, 2017 @12:59AM (#16034076)
>2FA is extraordinarily relevant when it comes to theft with regard to online banking

If theft through online banking even exists, it's at such a low volume as to be irrelevant. Most online banking interfaces are a read-only view of recent transactions. Some provide the ability to transfer funds between your own linked accounts at the same bank. Fewer still provide bill pay for a specific set of partner institutions, and a tiny proportion of the most technologically sophisticated banks provide the ability to transfer money to any arbitrary person. When they do, adding a new payee is loud (sends a bunch of notifications) and requires SMS verification and/or digits off your debit card. The transfer is loud and takes several days to actually happen (so you can cancel it), and is limited to a couple thousand dollars at most. This is a fringe thing that a handful of people use occasionally. Most peer-to-peer transfers are going to happen through Venmo, which piggy-backs off a debit card, or through paper checks. Most online bill pay is going to happen by giving the biller your account and routing number.

The largest vector by far for stealing from a bank account is capturing a debit card number in some legitimate transaction, and reusing it to make fraudulent transactions. The strength of the communication channel between payer's bank and payer is irrelevant, because you don't get to weigh in on debit card transactions (or checks) against your account. They just happen, and then you can dispute them later.

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by Tehnix on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:40AM (#16034443)
I am not aware of a country in Europe where the online banking interface is not able to transfer money, both domestically and internationally vi e.g. SEPA and other methods - it’s called “online banking”...

Phishing and other things were a large attack vector until 2FA mostly did away with it.

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by closeparen on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:36AM (#16034837)
The capabilities of European online banking are irrelevant to the security needs of American online banking. Yes, you need 2FA, because your online banking is actually for making transactions.

In the US, it isn't. On the off chance that the capability is there, it's seldom used. You make transactions by telling the other party your account number.

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by RandomInteger4 on Monday January 01, 2018 @04:10PM (#16048054)
What kind of backwards bank do you bank with that doesn't allow transactions to be made from their web portal?
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by evfanknitram on Saturday December 30, 2017 @01:57AM (#16034217)
> and a tiny proportion of the most technologically sophisticated banks provide the ability to transfer money to any arbitrary person.

In the country where I live all internet banks supports this. And all of course use 2FA. Most if not all banks here let's me do any kind or transactions. Not just viewing my data but transferring money, buying stock, setting up new bank accounts, pension management and everything else.

Maybe it's the lack of security at your place which prevents useful functionality.

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by closeparen on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:38AM (#16034842)
Well yes, the country where you live needs 2FA on online banking because it actually has transaction capabilities. The US essentially doesn't, so the lack of 2FA isn't a significant problem.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by evfanknitram on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:47AM (#16034880)
So why does the US banks not have transactions capabilities? Online banking without transactions seems like a oxymoron.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by rimliu on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:50AM (#16034582)
Can you clarify what country are you talking about? Because it’s nothing like this where I am and around. On the contrary, banks have been pushing for even more online capabilities for years, so you not only can pay whomever whenever wherever you want, you can open accounts, take loans, buy insurance, see your spendings grouped in categories, etc. etc. The more you can do online yourself, the less staff banks have to pay. Also, there is none of this weird payment card acount/normal account thing. You just have an account and card(s) tied to it. For any purchase I do with my card I get a notification instantly on my phone. As I do for other activity in my account.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by oblio on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:12AM (#16034768)
Where do you live that online banking is read only? I'm from Romania, so a developing country, and we've had full online banking (transfer money abroad, schedule monthly payments, make savings accounts, etc.) since at least 2007 for all the major banks.

If someone would hack my online banking account they could do quite a few nasty things...

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by closeparen on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:28AM (#16034811)
The context of this thread is puzzlement that the US doesn't have widespread 2FA for online banking, and I'm telling you why.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by oblio on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:40AM (#16034848)
That's just sad if it's widespread in the US.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by mmcnl on Saturday December 30, 2017 @09:04AM (#16035257)
> Most online banking interfaces are a read-only view of recent transactions.

What year is this, 1997? Is this normal in the US? I'm beyond amazed. Using online banking for transferring money is such a normal activity here (has been for at least 10 years).

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by jasonkester on Saturday December 30, 2017 @07:44AM (#16035032)
You're mistaken. All three of my US banks allow you to send money out via bill pay, ACH to accounts at other US banks, and wire transfers overseas. It's Online Banking, not Online Statement Viewing.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by algesten on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:55AM (#16034475)
uhm. no?! I've paid all my bills and transferred money between friends/family using online banking for the last 20 years. Sweden had full online banking since at least 1997.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by mindslight on Friday December 29, 2017 @09:28PM (#16033455)
Perversely, initiating an ACH credit is apparently seen as more risky than receiving an ACH debit. I believe this is ultimately due to the originator being responsible for any transaction that turns out to be fraudulent.

In general I think the US is comfortable to limp along putting band-aids on broken systems, because the failings are seen as being intrinsic to the "natural state" of things (see also: common law and court precedent reigning), and the losses are ultimately sustainable. The possibility of a fraudulent transaction can never be eliminated, so therefore it's whatever party facilitates/blesses the transaction that fully bears the responsibility. Meanwhile the EU doesn't seem afraid to create new foundational semantics - eg get rid of the concept of "pulling" money, and then dictate that banks cannot charge customers for the equivalent of initiating an ACH push [0].

[0] Bank of America actually charges for this. They also charge for walk-in cashing of checks drawn on themselves - meaning they are inducing their own customers to write fraudulent checks!

Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by closeparen on Saturday December 30, 2017 @01:02AM (#16034079)
No one is eating the risk, it's simply priced in as a 2-3% sales tax paid to the credit card network ecosystem.
Re:Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret by mindslight on Saturday December 30, 2017 @10:34AM (#16035641)
I was referring to ACH, not credit cards.

Also, something you said in a related comment:

> tiny proportion of the most technologically sophisticated banks provide the ability to transfer money to any arbitrary person

My experience is that every US bank has an "external account" transfer feature (for use with your other accounts) that can initiate ACH credits or debits, as well as a "Bill Pay" that will do ACH credits to any routing/account number. But (as I alluded to) banks limit the dollar amount of transactions initiated through them, as they are responsible for cleaning up any mess due to "fraud".