Do you have data supporting your claim. I know a lot of people who are really good and continue to work in India. Infact I have also seen a lot of good people coming back to India (since last 2 - 3 years). So things are gradually improving for good.

> at the big scale the top R&D and engineering work still generally occurs in the home countries that were sending work to India and there’s little evidence that these jobs could, at scale, be done successfully by the Indian firms offshore.

I was talking about this outright dismissal without any ground.

> Indian IT industry was designed and built for a certain type of labor/outsourcing market.

Indian IT industry got shaped by the demand. You wanted cheaper options and you got provided one.

> It will take serious investment and attitude shift internally for local startups to grow and retain talent.

Pay good and you will retain talent.

> Much of that talent that is able to perform the serious engineering you describe continually leave the country for the U.S. and other markets.

Please speak for yourself. The west fixation does not apply to all folks. We get to do awesome engineering work here so don't have to be in a foreign land to do so. With remote teams coming into the picture having a preset notion that a team has to be local is an outdated mindset. And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job and have a better lifestyle here than the west can afford.

> And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job

Which is nothing to be proud of, the maids are affordable because lot of poor people did not have the same privileges like you had.

Yea why do Indians always brag about having maids. That's disgusting.

Unfortunately the poor people who are usually illiterate are treated as a lower class.

The rich or upper middle class kids while growing up see that they and their parents can order the maids to do almost anything and so when the kids grow up they see the maids as a class of people who are not equal to them.

It becomes a status issue as well if you say you dont have maids then your affluent peers will think you are weird or that you cant even afford a maid.

>>And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job and have a better lifestyle here than the west can afford.

Bulk of you post is true. But lets give west the credit where they deserve. Most of us can't afford maids. May be you can. Even if we did, its more like jugaad. People in west don't need maids because they don't need maids to sweep the floor, they don't have 1 kg of road dust coming in from dug up roads unrepaired for years. Their homes are designed to make vaccum cleaners easily usable. They have cheap dishwashers, microwave ovens, washing machines and dryers.

You move to west your standard of living by default sees an upgrade at 0 cost. Roads, infrastructure, schooling, economic opportunity etc etc.

This is an important point. As a westerner living in Asia now, I'm always amused by the maid-mongering that goes on here: "Oh, do you have a maid, a driver, and servants?" These are widespread status symbols in Asia.

Now, of course these household servants perform valuable labour here. But where I'm from, a technologically advanced country- we've largely obviated household help. We have central HVAC, automatic dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, Amazon Echo, Nest, etc etc. There is no need for full-time maids, you see.

I'm sorry if this sounds smug, but it's true. Indians reminding westerners that they have maids is something that makes us smile knowingly. Residual colonialism in the 21st century doesn't impress us.

I am not talking about enslaving or forcing someone. I am employing and uplifting someones family who doesn't have other means of income.

Excuse me - we have gadgets here and at an affordable cost too. Some people do make conscious decision to avoid automation so we can employ and help others. We have a thought process here to buy from shops near by(albeit little costlier) instead of amazon'g the whole requirement so we can help people near by. Western lifestyle is not a definite one as an ideal one. Please understand that we can enjoy our lifestyle without any gripe. Why is it so hard to swallow?.

In my case - my mom is a cancer patient. I don't know whether i could afford a house nurse and cook in the west from a decent paying job. We got some positives too - that is what i stated.

>>I am employing and uplifting someones family who doesn't have other means of income.

You are making a virtue out of this. This is really like the British saying they ruling over us was good for us because of english, railways and parks. So they were screwing us for our own good.

Most of these maids, work on hourly basis on slave wages. And are generally treated badly. There are even spaces in Restaurants where they have to sit outside while their masters indulge in fine dining. And other times most people give away old throw worthy food to them. There is no 'help' going on here.

>>We have a thought process here to buy from shops near by(albeit little costlier) instead of amazon'g the whole requirement so we can help people near by.

Kirana shops near my home are shutting down like no tomorrow after GST, and a DMart opened near by. Indians are known to think through their wallets.

>>Please understand that we can enjoy our lifestyle without any gripe. Why is it so hard to swallow?.

There is a big difference between getting seasoned or at best indifferent to problems, than having no problems.

>>In my case - my mom is a cancer patient. I don't know whether i could afford a house nurse and cook in the west from a decent paying job.

I hope she recovers soon. Yours is a different situation and I understand, most of us(Including me) have many reasons(in my case, old parents) to not move to the west. But I imagine if I was there my life would be way better.

From an economic standpoint, this doesn't sound very uplifting. Any full time servant you hire is probably going to have less social mobility than you, and less education. And they are necessarily going to earn a fraction of your wages.

Employing someone full time to clean and maintain house isn't really uplifting anyone in a societal sense. Option 1: 30 families eschew automation and hire a full-time maid. Option 2: 30 families own a vacuum cleaner and a dishwasher and hire a cleaner once every other week for 3 hours to maintain their house. The latter is what happens in western communities and it results in 29 more productive workers looking for gainful employment in the workforce. If you don't see why that is an uplifting thing for society, you should take a good hard look at your understanding of economics.

As for your anecdote of the family member with cancer, house nurses are indeed common and affordable in western societies, we generally call this service "hospice." And while I may not employ a cook, there are 150 restaurants in my city that will deliver meals to my doorstep within 30 minutes.

fjsolwmv: Maybe 100 years ago. I don't know anyone or even heard of anyone with a maid. The closet thing is paying someone to come clean your house once or twice a month for an hour or two and that's pretty inexpensive.

People in USA have maids as status symbol too

Of course they do, but not nearly to the same extent. And the point here is that in the context of this thread, using maids as a mark on the Indian lifestyle-superiority index in the shadow of IT layoffs is not a good look.

In general not though. They have maids because they need them, not as a status symbol. And it is largely for the fairly wealthy and not something generally aspired to (in and of itself).

In fact, a lot of people will instantly regard those with maids as "probably assholes" in the US.

Maybe 100 years ago. I don't know anyone or even heard of anyone with a maid. The closet thing is paying someone to come clean your house once or twice a month for an hour or two and that's pretty inexpensive.

> I was talking about this outright dismissal without any ground.

The quotes text was an observation without any judgement.

The rest of the post addresses how the Indian it industry started to boom and why they're losing so many jobs so quickly. Still no dismissal.

It's not that Indian doesn't have talent. It's just that it's not smart to outsource your main competency. So they're not doing that.