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Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by Tijdreiziger on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @06:18PM (#16018957)
Why are the shoes manufactured in China if no humans are necessary to do so? The primary reason to do manufacturing in low-wage countries now seems to be just that: low wages. Take out the need to pay wages and it makes a lot of sense to manufacture locally to save on shipping costs (and maybe even do things like manufacturing to order instead of keeping stock).
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by bryanlarsen on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:20PM (#16019834)
Why is a lot of software written in Silicon Valley? There are lots of good reasons why it shouldn't be (labor costs, etc), and nothing is as location-independent as software, yet networking effects mean that Silicon Valley remains the hub for software.

China is similarly dominant for manufacturing. It's no longer about cost, it's about the concentration of expertise and cross-fertilization that results. Because of automation nobody will ever have the cost advantage that gave China its current dominance so China will remain the hub for the foreseeable future.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by cepth on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:19PM (#16020078)
This really depends on what kind of goods you’re trying to manufacture.

Speaking from firsthand experience, if you want to have anything with a circuit in it prototyped, picking a Shenzhen area factory to work with has many advantages. You can have new circuit boards printed and tested within a day. This kind of ecosystem may be hard to replicate elsewhere.

On the other hand, for many other physical products proximity to the end customer is becoming the primary concern. Consider that as real wages in China are increasing, you’re looking at a 20-30% wage increase over the last 4-5 years in China. This means that any cost advantage over other countries is rapidly closing. Chinese raw materials and electricity are no cheaper than in the rest of the world. Due to new factors like increasingly stringent environmental regulations, many of these other inputs are increasing in cost. (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2058175/chine...)

If I want to have a plastics part mass produced, there are a number of regions in the US where there is near-parity with China when you factor in shipping costs, insurance, tariffs, the costs of delays and defects etc.

For industries like textiles, there’s already been significant flight to India and Southeast Asia.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by dx034 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @06:40AM (#16021522)
Isn't Adidas building automated factories in the US and Germany to produce close to designers and customers?
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by majewsky on Thursday December 28, 2017 @07:46AM (#16021720)
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by snaky on Thursday December 28, 2017 @07:55AM (#16021750)
Close to US and DE customers.

And Chinese brands like Li-Ning grabs all other markets.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by snaky on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:42PM (#16020160)
> a lot of software written in Silicon Valley

The vast majority of software are written a) in house b) outside of SV c) in Java and C#

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by BurningFrog on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:49PM (#16020185)
Even if the expertise for this is all in China, why don't the Chinese put a shoe factory/machine in California so I can have my custom made shoes two weeks sooner and cheaper?

It doesn't even require any human experts to run, so why does it matter where the experts live?

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by cepth on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @11:08PM (#16020247)
I expect that as robots, in a loose sense, become better at fine movements, you'll have more and more "near-sourcing". An early example of this: Brother, the printing company, had an exhibit at CES a couple years ago that really wowed: http://techfaster.com/brother-brought-some-awesome-sewing-ma....

For now, there is at least an initial "activation energy" hump to get over in terms of training people to assemble shoes. A sneaker or dress shoe may seem simple, but there are hundreds of individual stitches that are essential for a quality product. If you're interested, look into the story of American Giant. To make clothes in North Carolina, they had to implement extensive training for the entire supply chain for their clothing.

Some simpler footwear products are actually already made in the U.S. The custom orthotics for my running shoes were measured for and made in the U.S.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by ThrustVectoring on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @06:29PM (#16019022)
Shorter supply lines to components and materials probably matters more than shorter supply lines to consumers. Plus, logistically speaking, China has a huge domestic market and a lot of manufacturing should probably be located there to minimize overall shipping costs.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by libertymcateer on Thursday December 28, 2017 @08:28AM (#16021868)
First, humans are still necessary - to build the factories, to operate them, to act as security guards - and the cost of those humans is still lower.

Second - all the other costs in low wage countries are also a lot lower. Combine that with how absurdly cheap international shipping is and there is no reason to relocate the manufacture of low-margin goods to the US until you are really starting to talk about the costs of automation being so efficient the extra pennies on shipping will make a difference in earnings. Given the expense of maintaining real assets in the U.S., i.e., buildings (utilities, maintenance, insurance, taxes, building), this is likely to be a while.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by nawitus on Thursday December 28, 2017 @09:33AM (#16022164)
"First, humans are still necessary - to build the factories, to operate them, to act as security guards - and the cost of those humans is still lower."

A lot of this work will be automated in the coming decades to the point where the effect of wage costs is marginal. In addition, the salaries in developing countries will continue to increase, eventually catching up Western nations. At that point the main factors are probably tax/import policies, price of enercy etc.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by syshum on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:22PM (#16019302)
1. Environmental Regulations

2. Currency Exchange Rate (i.e State Manipulation)

3. Raw Supply Chain Location

4. Government Subsidies

5. Large Domestic Market

Plenty of reasons why the shoes may continue to be made in China or in the Region.

Companies move for a number of reasons, Raw Wages are often not as high on the list as people believe, at least not these days. Government Regulations, Taxation, and other non-wage factors are much higher

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by daurnimator on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:44PM (#16019403)
I imagine another large factor is economies of scale. e.g. if a machine that makes 1000 widgets an hour is only 10 times the price of one that makes 10 widgets an hour, then you'll get centralisation.

The other factor I imagine is proximity/availability of raw resources, and refineries of raw resources: if you're not shipping those shoes across the world, you still have to transport the plastic, leather, rubber etc to make them.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by mulmen on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @08:20PM (#16019561)
But now you're assuming the labor was selected due to proximity to the raw resources when conventional wisdom says the labor was selected purely on cost.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by daurnimator on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:26PM (#16020093)
I imagine the flow is:

  - Location selected based on cost of labor.
  - Major port is developed to deal with large amounts of goods
  - A few more factories/industries start in same area due to port accessibility
  - Refineries are built to be close to location of usage (now they import raw materials instead of refined materials)
  - More factories are built due to easy availability of resources + accessible port for export
  - Labor gets more expensive, but economies of scale of factories + refineries means it is cheaper to stay in place then to move elsewhere
  - Automation slowly displaces labour.
End result being that economies of scale in manufacturing and refining make it cheaper to centralise manufacture and pay for shipping the end product than to decentralise and pay for small factories/refineries everywhere + shipping of raw resources.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by mulmen on Thursday December 28, 2017 @01:49AM (#16020736)
I think you are right about this.

As a thought experiment if there was a magical 3d printer that could take any number of raw materials as inputs and combine them in any way would it become more efficient to ship a mix of raw materials to each end consumer? Say I consume x amount of rubber, y amount of cotton, z amount of plastic, etc in my consumer goods in a day, week, month whatever. Could it be more efficient to get the rubber and cotton to my door and run them through the printer than it would to build the shoes, basketballs and t-shirts somewhere else and ship them?

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by pjc50 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @05:24AM (#16021295)
This only works if the materials are homogenous (can be used for lots of different things), don't require too much packaging and shipping overhead themselves, and there isn't a wastage issue from the manufacturing process. And the manufacturer is willing to let the IP out of their factory and into the wild where it can be pirated.

It's a bit like Blue Apron etc; you pay a small premium for the theatre of doing the assembly step yourself.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by libertymcateer on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:55PM (#16024435)
> purely on cost.

Proximity to resources is priced in to 'cost', no?

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by mulmen on Thursday December 28, 2017 @03:39PM (#16024730)
You have removed three words from my comment along with all context and then suggested an entirely different meaning.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by quantumleap22 on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @06:29PM (#16019018)
Environmental arbitrage.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by arcseco on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @08:34PM (#16019638)
I work for a Canadian company that manufactures lighting components near Guangdong. Chrome plating is almost impossible to do in North America at a cost competitive price point. Just an anecdote about the conditions there; The supplier we use chome plates parts using a hexavalent chromium plating technique as opposed to a trivalent technique, irrespective of the environmental hazards that come along with it (As far as I know it's produces carcinogenic by products). I didn't see one worker with a respirator on or disposable gloves during my visits, health and safety seems to be an after thought. One of the holding tanks that for the byproduct plating solution was leaking from a fitting into the soil below, the surrounding areas are mostly farm lands (not sure what is in the solution that was leaking, but I would assume you wouldn't want it taken up by food crop). For us it's definitely an environmental sidestep. Really the only way for the west to become cost competitive for low end industrial manufacturing is going to be through a softening of environmental regulations or China's will have to close the gap with improved regulations.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by mulmen on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:19PM (#16019832)
Or we could apply our domestic regulations to the entire supply chain. If you sell it here you have to follow the rules, all the way down.

Of course then things would be expensive...

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by katastic on Thursday December 28, 2017 @04:58AM (#16021203)
There are various treatments (like Chrome plating) vendors one of my metalworking clients use--all available in the USA.

They compete by being extremely efficient with their use of labor hours and cutting waste. Just-in-time everything.

I'd be careful to extrapolate your direct experience to indicate trends.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by nugi on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:02PM (#16024050)
I speak from experince in chroming. In the USA, hex chrome is insanely expensive, if even still possible under EPA. You may be thinking of tri chrome, which is what you can get here. Everyone outsources now due to this.

Hoenstly, the chemicals are horrendus and chrome's days are numbered in any capacity thanks to new mirror finish water based paint. Even china will soon ban hex chrome process, by proxy if not explicitly.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by mulmen on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:16PM (#16024159)
I'm not a chemist, how will water based paint displace (heh) chrome? I understand the environmental and possibly cost benefits but if it is water based how will it work for exposed surfaces? Will it be used in heavy equipment on hydraulic actuators? I see the benefit of water based paint inside the cylinder where it meets the oil but what about the exposed area?
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by optikaluzion on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @06:46PM (#16019115)
This would probably be true if China didn't subsidize delivery of packages to the US. In many cases it is cheaper to send a package from China to the US than send the same thing within the US.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by blackguardx on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:02PM (#16019749)
The USPS actually subsidizes the shipping of packages from China to the US. It is due to a treaty that was signed before China was an indistrialized nation.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by mehrdadn on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:16PM (#16020068)
This blew my mind. Thank you for posting this!
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by wmeredith on Thursday December 28, 2017 @10:09AM (#16022344)
I also thought this was odd. US is the world's leader in manufacturing by GDP, but it's mostly automated compared to China.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by Feniks on Thursday December 28, 2017 @07:46AM (#16021722)
No there are other considerations as well.

Infrastructure, price of electricity, political stability, availability of cheap land.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by amigoingtodie on Thursday December 28, 2017 @04:49PM (#16025196)
I heard low-wage factory jobs are leaving China and going to Africa.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:55PM (#16020206)
Because China is now the world leader in manufacturing technology.
Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by taway20171214 on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @08:00PM (#16019466)
how about: in the year 2036, the chinese are just better at making shoes than anyone else, because they've been doing it for 60 years?

why is this so difficult for you to imagine?

i mean, i'm pretty sure i know why, but ask yourself.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by BurningFrog on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:53PM (#16020195)
The point of the article is that humans aren't making shoes anymore. So who has the best human expertise is irrelevant.

The fully automated shoemaking machine could be placed anywhere the raw materials could be shipped.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by taway20171214 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:43AM (#16020549)
> So who has the best human expertise is irrelevant.

i agree, there's no way on earth any chinese firm could have the best shoe-making robot plant in 20 years. we all know chinese people aren't smart enough for that.

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by dang on Thursday December 28, 2017 @04:07AM (#16021077)
Nationalistic flamewars have no place on HN, regardless of which nations are at issue. We've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Lonely Future of Buying Stuff by ribosometronome on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:26PM (#16020095)
I don't think they're trying to be racist against robots but wondering why Chongqing Future Robot Co Inc wouldn't put a shoebot in Phoenix to reduce the amount of shipping the shoe requires.