News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by sevensor on Saturday December 16, 2017 @04:03PM (#15942089)
There are two internets now -- the internet of documents and the internet of applications. For reading documents, including somewhat dynamic documents like HN, all I need is w3m. But for the internet of applications you need a thin client: a javascript VM and layout engine. I regard anything that runs javascript as inherently malicious, out to violate my privacy and drain my battery. Of these, shenanigans notwithstanding, Firefox is still the least bad of the bad actors. Like most of the community, I'm disgusted but not surprised by this stupid stunt.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by dvfjsdhgfv on Saturday December 16, 2017 @05:37PM (#15942620)
Actually it would be great - in the best interest of users - to make this distinction more pronounced. The "document web" should be a relatively safe space that you can comfortably browse with JS disabled. The "app web" is a different beast, and the trust of the user to turn on the JS engine should be earned. We could have "web browsers" and "app browsers", with the former being much more safe and less resource-consuming.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by brownbat on Saturday December 16, 2017 @10:23PM (#15943876)
I really think there should be a .text TLD.

I don't know how you enforce it exactly, and maybe it's redundant with pastebin.

It still nags at me that sometimes I want to go to the web to just read a thing, measured in the tens of kilobytes, and all this other nonsense just gets in the way.

It's my kooky nostalgia probably. Old man yells at cloud. But other times, for fleeting moments, I think about applying for that TLD and feel just a bit like Ray Kinsella...

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by panic on Saturday December 16, 2017 @10:37PM (#15943934)
I really think there should be a .text TLD.

That would be great -- I'm imagining a whole TLD full of sites like http://text.npr.org and http://lite.cnn.io/en.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by azernik on Sunday December 17, 2017 @06:16AM (#15945284)
Doesn't have to be that minimalistic - I could see up-to-date CSS being a good member of a document-only web.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday December 16, 2017 @11:04PM (#15944026)
gopher://
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by Endy on Sunday December 17, 2017 @07:03AM (#15945415)
I do find it interesting that within the last year, two new and viable gopher browsers have been created - one for Windows and one for Android.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by DavidPiper on Saturday December 16, 2017 @11:35PM (#15944129)
There's .page that could work just as well. I'd be keen to see a movement like that too.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ethbro on Saturday December 16, 2017 @06:55PM (#15943014)
Good point. The commingling of the two is probably more the "failure" of the web than anything else.

There's no reason I should be required to go through the "app" web (Flash, JS, Silverlight) to get something off the "document" web.

... and most use cases don't require an "app" web.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by krapp on Saturday December 16, 2017 @06:22PM (#15942862)
The distinction isn't pronounced. Few sites are, distinctly, only "apps" or "documents." So how would one define an "app" in this case, in a way that wouldn't encompass most of the existing web as "apps?"
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ethbro on Saturday December 16, 2017 @06:59PM (#15943030)
Anything that uses JavaScript?

Or allows only the minimal subset required to implement AJAX type functionality.

The argument for expanding web standards has always been "if we don't, then they'll just appify it and we won't have any say" (see DRM debate).

An explicit decoupling of information from interactivity would lessen the pressure for that.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by krapp on Saturday December 16, 2017 @07:30PM (#15943152)
"Anything that uses Javascript" would include, as I said, almost the entire web, including sites which primarily serve text and act as documents, including Hacker News. View the source - it even uses AJAX.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by librexpr on Saturday December 16, 2017 @09:57PM (#15943764)
I've just replied to you with JS disabled. I also created this account with no JS (this was a year ago). Upvoting also works without JS.

In my experience, of all the websites that don't work without JS, only a minority actually need it. Most of the time it's silly things like articles and blog posts that just show a blank screen without JS, or drop-down menus that rely on JS even though there are perfectly fine non-JS ways to do it, etc.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by c22 on Saturday December 16, 2017 @10:02PM (#15943781)
"Anything that requires JavaScript" might be a better criteria. Hn gracefully falls back without JavaScript enabled because it's not necessary, just some added convenience.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by krapp on Sunday December 17, 2017 @05:18AM (#15945131)
Even then, sites which lack graceful degradation aren't so qualitatively different from the few that do that they need to be moved to an entirely different platform, viewed from a different device and considered "applications" and not "documents." That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What does make sense to me is a new platform based on WASM, with related tooling. Photoshop in the browser or something running the Unreal Engine or .Net is not the web enough to maybe deserve its own thing. But a new platform based on what are essentially complaints about complexity or efficiency would be too messy.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ethbro on Saturday December 16, 2017 @11:51PM (#15944191)
Yes.

Right now there's next to zero incentive not to use JavaScript. And only slightly more to engineer a working fallback page.

Bifurcating the web would provide one.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by krapp on Sunday December 17, 2017 @05:32AM (#15945165)
You're arguing for a technical solution to what is essentially a cultural problem.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ethbro on Monday December 18, 2017 @05:37PM (#15956138)
I'd argue that the cultural problem (sites being VM-tech-heavy) is caused by a technology choice (never saying "this much technology is sufficient for a large part of the web").

Or to put it another way, extrapolated down this path README.txt files on the web in the future will only be accessible with a pair of VR goggles.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by closeparen on Saturday December 16, 2017 @10:15PM (#15943836)
A document is static. It's neither necessary nor desirable that we access documents over the internet by contacting their owners. It's better for both privacy and resilience to handle documents over something like IPFS.

The web as we know it is much better suited to applications, where websites have behavior as well as content. Whether the rendering is server-side like HN or client-side like Facebook is irrelevant.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by PhasmaFelis on Saturday December 16, 2017 @07:23PM (#15943117)
I'd argue that most sites are "documents" that have had "apps" unnecessarily shoehorned into them for cosmetic or financial reasons.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by cfreeman on Saturday December 16, 2017 @08:53PM (#15943499)
Seems kind of silly to ignore that javascript enables much more robust user interfaces. It can and is used poorly or maliciously, but it's used for far more than cosmetic or financial reasons.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by userbinator on Sunday December 17, 2017 @12:08AM (#15944255)
What is "much more robust" even supposed to mean? It sounds like meaningless marketingspeak. The countless number of sites that break the back button, scrolling, general navigation, showering my eyes with distracting animations, or show some stupid popup when I select text make me lean towards the UI being much better without JS, and indeed I keep it off by default.

I once had a site beg me to enable JS "for a better user experience", one which didn't need it to work. I did, and promptly turned it off again when I realised what the "better" actually meant (see above). Not going to fall for that one again...

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by adrianN on Sunday December 17, 2017 @12:36AM (#15944343)
When I want to read an article in a newspaper, I don't need a "robust" user interface, I need the text and (sometimes) the pictures. Links to other relevant content are a bonus. This could be done with the very first web browser.

Yet for some reason (hint: money) newspaper websites load megabytes worth of scripts to display kilobytes of text.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by Tobba_ on Sunday December 17, 2017 @10:55AM (#15946213)
There isn't really any practical reason for most sites to support users with JS disabled, as they're a pretty small minority. So there isn't really any good reason sites or users would actually care about or bother making the distinction.

Just make a separate "document web", with a standard that isn't utterly lovecraftian and has all the functionality that current ostensibly "document-only" sites (i.e news, forums, etc) rely on JS for. Then, disguise it inside some hip web framework where the client end just acts as a viewer, client-side rendering to boot (with a fallback for users with JS disabled). Make sure an independent implementation can access the underlying "document" through the endpoints the clientside rendering uses. Now you're able to essentially fool people into supporting it.

Also, you could choose to represent your document sites as a pile of data and non-Turing-complete "scripts" that do the presentation, with state that can only change upon user interaction. That may seem like a really backwards way of doing it, but if done right, it would give you a really good bang for the buck in terms of functionality/UX vs implementation complexity.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by p15 on Sunday December 17, 2017 @12:47AM (#15944386)
Agree with this, but the problem is user demand in competitive markets.

> I regard anything that runs javascript as inherently malicious, out to violate my privacy and drain my battery.

Tech people like those on HN may understand the centralizing corporate control that's embedded in the current structure of the internet.

Average users a) have zero technical understanding b) mainly use JS-heavy, DRM/surveillance-loaded "big tech" websites c) lack the skills, awareness, and desire to change anything for increased user freedom. There's more reward for positive features than lack of negatives.

Unless a compelling case can be made to the minimally-competent user who sees only speed, usability, and immediate real-world social use (I can watch DRM movies, play DRM music, use FB / YT / Google Apps / other "big tech"), any shift seems unlikely.

The problem is less technical than social. DRM / surveillance tech crapware is now a social norm, and there's rarely a good time to have a discussion. Most non-technical people just don't know or care.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by mrighele on Saturday December 16, 2017 @04:15PM (#15942159)
I would in fact be happy if we could just have a simple VM and a low level rendering engine, let's say something like a WASM based VM (or even JS if we really have to), and WebGL or similar for rendering. Define a standard way to provide (or refuse) access to local and remote resources and leave all the rest (HTML, CSS, Web Workers, Audio Playback, Video Playback etc) as software running on the VM. This way you would not need a few GB of memory if you need only to display a wall of text and it would be easier both to share code between implementations and contribute software (as libraries ? plugins?) to the platform.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by yathern on Saturday December 16, 2017 @04:58PM (#15942392)
Because then every site would need to include a CSS + HTML rendering library to be executed in this VM - it would be like every site needing to include their JS framework of choice except much heavier.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by loup-vaillant on Saturday December 16, 2017 @07:22PM (#15943110)
No they wouldn't need to. They'd just have to advertise CSS + HTML, and the app browser would just use their internal CSS + HTML engine (possibly written in WASM for better sandboxing). There are probably a whole spectrum between those two extremes (all the code in the server, or all the code in the client).
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by mrighele on Sunday December 17, 2017 @03:34AM (#15944829)
I was thinking about something more like a "flash plugin": you may have to install once (or it might be bundled with the installer) and then "it just works". The main difference would be that it would be sandboxed and so limited on what it can do.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by citiguy on Sunday December 17, 2017 @07:49AM (#15945548)
Thanks for this! For years I've been looking for a unixy command line browser that cuts through all the web related cruft. W3m fits the bill nicely.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by danjoc on Saturday December 16, 2017 @06:44PM (#15942964)
>Of these, shenanigans notwithstanding, Firefox is still the least bad of the bad actors.

I would say Brave is better here. By default Brave blocks 3rd party cookies and ads. Brave has browser fingerprint blocking as well, but that is not enabled by default, presumably because that would break a lot of web applications and give the users a bad first impression of Brave.

Brave also comes with built in cryptocurrency micropayments as an optional way to sustain websites without advertisements.

The least bad actor in my view currently, is Brave.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by daodedickinson on Saturday December 16, 2017 @09:13PM (#15943579)
Yep, don't wonder about the downvotes.