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Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by jen729w on Saturday December 09, 2017 @02:56AM (#15884788)
IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing.

It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds?

I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings - will be the successors that we actually use in the future. (Pick your own alt-coin as the successor; good luck.)

If I had a large holding in Bitcoin now I would be cashing out or I'd be nervous. I'm not saying it won't go higher, I'm saying that at some point its demise is inevitable. Might be quick, might be slow, but it'll happen because Bitcoin is not the technically best solution in this incredibly exciting field. It's not even close.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by kybernetikos on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:02AM (#15884811)
> it'll happen because Bitcoin is not the technically best solution in this incredibly exciting field

Not only that, but it's shown that it doesn't have the ability to make the changes necessary to innovate and stay current.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by hbosch on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:24AM (#15886157)
In fairness (I'm personally not a Bitcoin supporter) from the outside, it seemed more like the problem is no one can agree on who should be pushing changes and innovation: Core Dev or the coalition of miners?
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by spookthesunset on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:00PM (#15887022)
> In fairness (I'm personally not a Bitcoin supporter) from the outside, it seemed more like the problem is no one can agree on who should be pushing changes and innovation: Core Dev or the coalition of miners?

If you step back and look at any kind of "libertarian" driven project this becomes a problem. When everybody who makes something inherently distrusts authority or having anybody "in charge", you can never really build anything big. I'd say bitcoin provides good evidence that to make any big change in a system the buck always has to stop with some individual.

With nobody in charge, you'll just drift around at the same local maximum--sometimes going up a bit, sometimes going down a bit, but never moving to an even larger but different source of value.

I dunno... just a thought....

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by rspeer on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:17PM (#15887123)
Your thoughts are fine, don't undermine yourself by saying "I dunno... just a thought" like that.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by solotronics on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:22AM (#15886149)
It has evolved to be a store of value and it's doing an amazing job at that. Thinking from the perspective of the developers (many of whom have very large amounts of BTC) a slow and deliberate rate of changes is a very good thing. Making a mistake here would mean hundreds of billions of dollars would be lost. I am all for other cryptos moving quickly and breaking things to test out new ideas. Who in their right mind would take the same mentality on Bitcoin?
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by newfoundglory on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:26PM (#15886823)
Why is this praiseworthy in bitcoin and seen as delaying progress and selfishly holding onto gains in taxi companies?
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by ComputerGuru on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:38PM (#15887246)
Bitcoin is absolutely not a good store of value. A good store of value is a reliable store of value: one where you can place your assets and go back and get them at any later time.

As a deflationary currency, bitcoin would be a hypothetically good store of value if a bitcoin actually had any intrinsic or even just de facto value. But it clearly doesn’t: it’s only the conversion to and from USD (and others) that has given it any value at all as an investment vehicle to some. And _that_ value isn’t guaranteed preserved one bit.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by HereBeBeasties on Saturday December 09, 2017 @02:18PM (#15887497)
Most asset classes look like that, though. Gold has some intrinsic value as a good conductor/reflector of heat. But it's not really so very much superior to aluminium or copper or whatever to make it worth what it is worth. It is expensive because it is scarce. That's it. Bitcoin is the same. (They are obviously very different in other ways, but you get the point.) Things don't need to have intrinsic value to be valuable. They simply need to be desired by the market.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by ComputerGuru on Monday December 11, 2017 @03:54PM (#15900345)
I agree with you - I actually implicitly meant everything you said.

The crux of the matter lies with your last sentence: "They simply need to be desired by the market"

Ergo, the quality of an asset as a "store of value" (the point of contention I was addressing in my comment) is directly mapped to the desire. BTC's desire is insanely volatile, automatically making it a poor store of value.

My point is precisely that all assets used as currency are oftentimes intrinsically worthless. It's the demand - and the liquidity it provides converting to and fro said currency from other goods or currencies - that makes it a value storage vehicle. BTC, as a "value storage vehicle," is a very poor choice. Gold isn't.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by chakalakasp on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:13PM (#15887827)
Gold isn't even in the same realm of volatility as BC, though. You put money in Gold and you're pretty sure if the world burns it's still worth something. You put money in BC at breakfast and you may be a pauper by lunch.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by colordrops on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:43AM (#15884918)
What is being missed by your analysis is that the value in a blockchain comes more from the network than the tech. There are thousands upon thousands of blockchains of no value. You could fork bitcoin or some other chain right now and start it on your laptop. Doesn't mean anything - the network is the value.

So taking this into account, when the shackles of Bitcoin's simplicity and limitations become unbearable, the network will evolve through protocol upgrades or through a contentious fork where the hash power and development resources will move to. In either case your coins and value are retained.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Pica_soO on Saturday December 09, 2017 @09:46AM (#15885986)
If humanity decides to walk the path of the worser tech, you can build a metropolis from diamond and light elsewhere as much as you want- nobody is going to migrate. They are going to pay outrageous sums, to upgrade the path the group is already heading down, the will pay to bribe and cast aside tech that holds them back. Alternative standards, no matter how pure and clean from a technical point of perspective, will be ignored.

Linux vs Windows allover, in fintech infrastructure and protocolls.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Bombthecat on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:56PM (#15887005)
Jep, that's why you just invest in bitcoin if you want to make money
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by zrm on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:25AM (#15886165)
> What is being missed by your analysis is that the value in a blockchain comes more from the network than the tech.

That is the reason why anyone can't just create a new coin and expect everyone else to value it, but that doesn't mean there can't be any viable competitors. And if a competitor with a sufficient advantage got popular enough, it could take the lead.

For example, the hack Bitcoin used to become popular was to be deflationary, which encourages speculation. That got the value up before it was cool, but it stays deflationary -- even gets more so -- once it's popular, and the consequent speculation causes high volatility. Once you're popular, being deflationary becomes a liability instead of an asset.

It's possible for a coin not to be deflationary and have the supply set by computing costs. If the value of the coin falls below the energy cost of creating them, people stop creating more of them and the value stabilizes there (so it doesn't keep going down). But as demand for the coin increases the value rises above the threshold and people start mining again (so it doesn't keep going up).

That stability would be a huge advantage. But it's not possible to convert Bitcoin to that because its deflationary nature is priced into its value. Making it non-deflationary would make it worthless to speculators, which would eliminate most of its current valuation.

So all it would take is for a non-deflationary coin to become popular enough for people to trust it not to disappear overnight and the people using it for transactions rather than speculation would prefer it over Bitcoin.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by omio on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:03PM (#15886677)
That wouldn't work because mining blocks also validates transactions.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by lojack on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:48PM (#15887296)
Difficulty is adjusted approximately every two weeks, so the network would self adjust to a reduced mining rate.

Mining isn’t used to validate transactions. You can validate transactions without mining. It’s purpose is to secure the network. The network validates transactions using asynchronous cryptography and nodes only transmit valid transactions. Mining secures those transactions from being overwritten.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by zrm on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:41PM (#15886913)
> That wouldn't work because mining blocks also validates transactions.

It's possible to validate transactions with proof of work and compensate the work with transaction fees rather than the creation of new coins.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by spookthesunset on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:03PM (#15887040)
> creation of new coins.

If your crypto-coin starts life with all the coins instantly sprung into existence, that means everybody gets to buy their coins from you--the founder. There is a name for this--it is a pre-mine scam. All you do is mine most of the coins yourself, then go pimp your coin so it gets some buyers, and sell them all off for a sweet profit.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by zrm on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:11PM (#15887082)
It isn't that new coins can't be created, a coin may be worth e.g. $100 and it costs $101 in electricity to create another one so nobody does until the demand for coins increases.

But the amount of work required to validate a transaction need not be as much as it takes to create a coin, and people will continue to be willing to pay someone 5c to do 4c worth of computation to validate their transaction.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Udik on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:30PM (#15887200)
Yep, a non deflationary currency would be precisely one that has its coins created all the time, instead of in a predefined amount as bitcoins. (You can think of mining as "discovering" one of the predefined bitcoins instead of creating a new one). The problem is that for a currency to be slightly inflationary, as it should be, you need to tie it to an economy and make political decisions about it- and then you're back at square one.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by lojack on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:01AM (#15886059)
With atomic swaps and other innovations in the space, the cost of switching networks is becoming smaller. It’s hard to say how all of this will pan out, but I’m guessing we’ll see a much more diverse space than what you’re picturing.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by VarFarYonder on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:04PM (#15887046)
> If I had a large holding in Bitcoin now I would be cashing out or I'd be nervous. I'm not saying it won't go higher, I'm saying that at some point its demise is inevitable. Might be quick, might be slow, but it'll happen because Bitcoin is not the technically best solution in this incredibly exciting field. It's not even close.

My guess is that this is less of factor than you think. I don't think that HTML/CSS/JS is the best technical solution for creating websites, and yet that is what all browsers use and there are few signs that that is changing anytime soon.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by InternetUser on Saturday December 09, 2017 @05:41AM (#15885202)
> something else - or many other somethings - will be the successors that we actually use in the future.

Right now, the top 3 crypto-tokens are Ethereum-based, as are 89 of the Top 100:

https://coinmarketcap.com/tokens/

Word-find "token" here to see what the word means in this context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by tenaciousDaniel on Saturday December 09, 2017 @09:49AM (#15886005)
This is my thought as well, and I don't understand why it isn't more commonly stated. The sheer chances that the very first implementation of this technology turns out to not only be viable for long-term success, but is actually adopted as such, seems extraordinarily low.

There's what I call the "football" effect. The player jumps on the football after a fumble, and while he's the first to grab it, there's a handful of 250 pound guys about to jump on top of him.

Bitcoin is the first to the football, but over the long term I think it's going to get inevitably crushed.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Klinky on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:16AM (#15886126)
There's also something called "first mover advantage", which kind of contradicts your "football effect". There have been a ton of altcoins created, none of which have crushed Bitcoin. Bitcoin is still holding on to the football quite handily.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by omg_ketchup on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:33AM (#15886193)
Also, the first person to jump on the football does get possession of the ball for the team, so there's that.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by tymmc on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:29PM (#15887916)
I'm personally skeptical that incumbency is a significant advantage, particularly given that Bitcoin now is impractical to use directly for most transactions. If your transactions are being done off the blockchain and it's trivial to switch to denominating them in a non-Bitcoin currency, and there's no particularly strong reason for people to accept Bitcoin as payment over a different currency, what's the barrier to entry for a new crypto-currency?
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Klinky on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:39AM (#15891848)
The barrier to entry is low. The barrier to mass adoption is high. Bitcoin is winning that war handily compared to any other cryptocurrency. There are definitely flaws with Bitcoin that will need to be ironed out, but the world's most elegant cryptocurrency is useless if no one has heard of it or uses it. First mover and marketing often trumps technological advantage. A non-techie doesn't care about Ethereum or Monero, but they do care about Bitcoin when the news is talking about how valuable it is everyday. Bitcoin is changing the mindset of what money is to the masses, this can't be said for other cryptocurrencies.

Perhaps Bitcoin will fail at some point in the distant future, but for the time being it is absolutely the most influential cryptocurrency, this can easily be seen by all altcoins' value being pegged to their BTC conversion rate.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Retric on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:20AM (#15886427)
Their are a few examples where the first impomentaion adapts and wins. However, email needed to change over time and adapt, but Bitcoin is very resistant to change which is going to kill it.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by foxhedgehog on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:29AM (#15884889)
I see this as the 1.0 era of blockchain. There may yet be an amazon or a google lurking amidst all of the pets.com ICOs out there. If I had to guess who would survive, I would say SAFE.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by xorcist on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:11PM (#15887076)
Somebody who feels compelled to sell their Bitcoins because the technology is not ready has probably not acquired any in the first place.

Whatever technology replaces Bitcoin is likely something you can buy with Bitcoin. That's why people rush to buy something which obviously isn't "ready" (but maybe "good enough"). It's speculative, but do not think that people who invested a lot in this didn't think this through at least as much as you have.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by FireBeyond on Saturday December 09, 2017 @02:43PM (#15887660)
> do not think that people who invested a lot in this didn't think this through at least as much as you have.

Yeah, it's not like I can go on to /r/bitcoin and read multiple dedicated screeds along the lines of "I'm recommending my friends to invest savings in BTC for retirement". Whereupon someone replies "They should keep something in a Roth IRA for diversity", and the OP comments, "What's a Roth IRA?"

Yes, there are sophisticated investors.

But in a lot of cases, the only thoughts going through peoples heads is "Get Rich Quick". There's more discussion of "what color Lamborghini am I buying?" than anything else on those forums right now than anything else. Well, beside 'HODL! HODL! Even if the market corrects $10,000 tomorrow, HODL!'.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by xorcist on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:15PM (#15887840)
Is the argument that you think Reddit users are representative of Bitcoin investors?

Most of the time it feels like these discussions are stuck rehashing old arguments in circles, but this was truly innovative. Thank you for not being predictable.

As for the argument itself, I think you are correct not to make any investment decisions based on what you described.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by FireBeyond on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:19PM (#15887860)
With 520,000 subscribers, is your argument that Reddit is -not- a statistically notable segment of Bitcoin investors?
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Operyl on Sunday December 10, 2017 @12:41AM (#15890148)
Just because someone is subscribed to a public forum doesn’t necessarily mean they’re holding or investing in bitcoin, just as easy to observe.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by seppin on Saturday December 09, 2017 @02:32PM (#15887586)
> Whatever technology replaces Bitcoin is likely something you can buy with Bitcoin.

Now THAT is the speculation to end all speculations.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by ComputerGuru on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:36PM (#15887234)
Moving from bitcoin to another crypto currency is still chasing out, unless I misssed your point.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Vadoff on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:21AM (#15886433)
You do realize bitcoin is constantly evolving and can change its code right? If another crypto creates a better scaling tech, bitcoin can incorporate that idea.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by Xorlev on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:29AM (#15886473)
Can, but won’t as has been proven repeatedly.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by grubles on Saturday December 09, 2017 @01:47PM (#15887286)
libsecp256k1, which was developed for Bitcoin, uncovered bugs in OpenSSL. It also increased signature validation speed by 5x.

https://bitcoin.org/en/release/v0.12.0#signature-validation-...

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by jiggunjer on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:00PM (#15886660)
Proven when? He said better tech,not bigger blocks.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by etr-strike on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:28PM (#15886834)
SegWit, Mimble Wimble, Schnorr Signatures, Lightning Network, and Rootstock all prove you're talking out of your ass.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by runeks on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:58AM (#15884946)
> It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds?

If superior technology comes along, what will prevent Bitcoin from adopting this, and using its network effect to outmaneuver a competing blockchain?

A couple of months ago, the Bitcoin network adopted the SegWit protocol change, which could be considered a minor fix (no major improvements to scalability). If the Bitcoin network can agree to adopt a minor fix, why wouldn’t it be able to agree to adopt a major scalability improvement as well?

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by jononor on Saturday December 09, 2017 @09:22AM (#15885903)
Adoption of Segwit (a minor change) was neither quick, easy or without controversy. It does not lend much faith in the Bitcoin community ability to deploy big changes in a timely manner.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by etr-strike on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:31PM (#15886858)
The consensus rules of bitcoin are supposed to be incredibly difficult to change. That's a feature, not a bug.

Changing consensus rules is only easy if the network is centralized. That's not something I want to have in my money.

If new technology demonstrates it's value beyond doubt, upgrading the network will have vast consensus.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by ignoramous on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:05AM (#15886354)
> Bitcoin is not the technically best solution in this incredibly exciting field. It's not even close.

Just curious here: What would you say are technically better solutions than bitcoin?

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by nly on Saturday December 09, 2017 @03:04PM (#15887783)
I'd argue some of the cryptocash ideas thrown around in the 90s were vastly superior on the technical front. We've had the schematics for instantanous, high transaction volume, offline, double-spend resistant, completely untraceable and anonymous, digital cash for 25 years... with no blockchain or energy crazy energy consumption requirements.

Why didn't these technologies succeed? Because none of those properties have any business advantage over boring, simple, centralized credit-card processing and back then everything was sealed up in patents until it missed the boat.

Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by eternalcode on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:09AM (#15886383)
that is a tough question as many other alt-coins have yet to be challenge by the huge volume that btc/eth experience. Some might say litecoin for one.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by badloginagain on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:19AM (#15886426)
I also like litecoin for the purely selfish reasons of it still being (relatively) cheap. BTC prices are out of my ability to play, and most ICO's are derivatives of 'ScamCoin'. LiteCoin is one of the few options it feels I can still get in on the action with a purpose driven coin with a strong/transparent dev team.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by berberous on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:32AM (#15886489)
You know you can buy fractions of a BTC, right?
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by fsiefken on Saturday December 09, 2017 @11:55AM (#15886639)
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by nadam on Saturday December 09, 2017 @12:26PM (#15886819)
One can argue that Dash is superior for payment. But because of network effects and bitcoin's battle tested security (and utility as store of value or settlement layer) even I as a big (but not fanatic) Dash fan hold more Bitcoin than Dash (BTC 55%, DASH: 21%, EOS:24%) If Dash becomes mainstream, then that 21% of mine will be enough for me. :)
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by perlpimp on Saturday December 09, 2017 @04:04AM (#15884959)
bitcoin is already used in pseudo reserve de-facto currency to trade other currencies. perhaps it will stay that way - a way into crypto world.
Re:Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale? by flibble on Saturday December 09, 2017 @10:04AM (#15886077)
If you have a bitcoin and cash out the amount you make us fixed/limited to the current value if a bitcoin. If you don't cash out the maximum you could possibly lose is 1 bitcoin but that amount you could make is largely unlimited. Your bitcoin could triple or 100x in value.