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Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:26AM (#15868950)
I think there is a 1st principles economic rationale that agrees with you.

In a nutshell, you need to get down to the "utility" concept. It's used (for example) to theoretically prove/support the idea that free exchange is always beneficial for both parties.

Putting prices onto otherwise unrestricted resources likewise optimizes for utility, especially if there are tragedy of the commons issues. The catch is that utility is measured in dollars.

Price systems increase efficiency by introducing trade-offs. If you don't really need to use the road you won't, because there's a cost to it. But (like you say), this trade-off is different for different people. For rich people, $40 is always worth it. For the middle class, $40 might be worth it if you can get home in time for date night. For poor people, $40 means you can't afford a date night this week. It's never worth it.

Basically, dollar-utility conversion is different for people with more or less money. To call this a utility-efficient outcome, you need to concede that a poor person's family dinner time is worth less. That's obviously false. We can't measure utility in dollars, if we have inequality.

On top of all that, roads are not "full" markets. This is not a free market solution. You can add a price system. but you don't have supply side effects. Prices don't reflect marginal costs of commuting, because there isn't competition. Price signals don't control supply, or lead to more supply. Even if supply wasn't exogenous in practice, the fixed/marginal cost ratio would make the "market" unresponsive anyway. This is not really a "free market" vs "public good" because free market just isn't an available option.

I would like to see some less idealistic economists take over on these issues. One interesting option is creating a fake "currency" for fast lanes. Ideas that assume people's time, enjoyment of the road and transport needs are equivalent. You probably can't take money entirely out of the equation, but there are ways of doing this without handing out benefits to the wealthy at the expense of the poor.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by harryh on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:11AM (#15870060)
I would like to see some less idealistic economists take over on these issues. One interesting option is creating a fake "currency" for fast lanes.

If poor people don't have enough money, then we should give them money instead of fake currency. Giving them fake currency reduces utility.

If we give them money they can buy whatever they want/need the most. If we give them scrip that can only be used on one thing then they have to buy that even if they would value it less than something else.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dredmorbius on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:27AM (#15870188)
If it is some fake currency, say, HOV-credits, that is distributed on a monthly basis, equally, to everyone, then to a first approximation, you're providing for equivalence in capacity to pay. You can choose to spend, or not spend, your HOV-credits, on any given day.

This also offers the opportunity for rationing, as it's possible to increase or decrease the allocations based on net usage.

If the credits expire after some time, say a few months, then there's the ability to bank them, but not indefinitely. This is not a form of perpetual wealth accumulation.

The argument could be made for either making the credits transferable, so that those less wealthy in other regards could sell them for other units of trade, or not, and/or to set limits on such transactions.

All of this occurs independent of actual currency, though there would be an overall budget to the programme.

And it accomplishes the goal of setting an opportunity cost to highway travel, and congestion, which could itself be varied according to circumstances (higher charges at peak hours / during high-congestion events, lower off-peak or when uncongested).

Then there's the question of interactions with alternative transit, telecommute, or similar schemes.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by harryh on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:34AM (#15870240)
1) If your roads are being overused you can easily ration that by raising the dollar price.

2) What is wrong with wealth accumulation? If credit recipients would rather do that than drive on roads they should be able to do so. They's how they get less poor!

3) If they credits are transferable then you are effectively giving people money. Just in an ass-backwards and overly confusing way.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:09AM (#15870606)
All depends on what problem you are trying to solve.

IMO, the problem is "how do we allocate road so that high utility use gets precedent over low value use, without defining high/low value as 'rich/poor person wants to get from a to b'"

Expiring credits is an idea, as are a lot of options. Designed markets are a devil-in-the-detail endevours. A market is a good tool for this job, that's why economists and wonks like tolls. But, not every market needs to be the market. In this case, The Market is probably worse than the no market free-for-all.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dredmorbius on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:59AM (#15871699)
Raising the HOV-units price provides equal purchasing capacity amongst all drivers.

I mentioned the option of transferability for completeness. I'm not advocating for or against it. I am noting that it would change the dynamics somewhat.

Your #2 is a rather more involved and tangential discussion. Historically, it has a strong tendency to end in tears, or worse.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by larksimian on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:38AM (#15871497)
3) You're giving them things that cost you nothing to produce which they can then sell for money.

I actually think this was a bit of an aha moment for me re: cryptocurrency and government.

It's possible for a government to setup a market for a public good, create a currency for that good and distribute that currency equally to people. All without spending actual currency(ignoring administrative costs of setting up a blockchain).

The value of the public good for people then determines the USD exchange rate, but poor people are never excluded from using the good and at the same time you are not massively inflating the money supply.

edit. In fairness, nothing about this requires a cryptocurrency/blockchain. It's more a general argument in favor of governments charging for public goods by creating custom (maybe fiat) currencies which they distribute equally to all citizens.

There might be administrative and/or psychological benefits to running all these custom currencies on blockchains.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by pas on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:00AM (#15870493)
Setting up a traffic-ration system fairly is probably a lot simpler than giving poor people money.
Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by harryh on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:45AM (#15871005)
I disagree. We have all the technology and processes we could ever need to distribute and charge people dollars for things.

Creating a whole new kind of currency with its own special rules is a huge undertaking. Not to mention the ongoing pain-in-the ass cost to every citizen when they have to carry around and think about a new special kind of money that can only be used for one thing.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by thatcat on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:53AM (#15871642)
The tech isn't the problem, it's that the avalibility distribution that is imposed on roads is the same as the income distribution. In a way it creates the same problems as removing net neutrality.

If you did that with roads, what's stopping the upper income distribution from excluding everyone else from entire cities? A gated community concept might scale to an entire upperclass city with a private airport, hostpital, and 1000$ entry fee to keep out the poor. This might even effectively reduce overall costs for the municipality since homeless and property crime would be greatly reduced.

On the other hand if other currency is used, it makes everyone easily trackable.

I think the dumb pipes model still has some advantages.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by pas on Friday December 08, 2017 @04:30AM (#15877638)
> it makes everyone easily trackable.

zkSNARKs for the rescue! It's surprisingly easy to roll with that. (See Zcash, Monero, ETH and whatever.)

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dredmorbius on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:05PM (#15871742)
There are simple and effective (from a traffic-flow-control perspective) solutions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_meter

I'd focus more on one of my other punts above: ways of drawing a correspondence between traffic and congestion, on the one hand, and alternative transit options (buses, rail, cycling, telecommuting, etc.) on the other. Market pricing signals fail to provide the coordination many of these options require. Typically, planning-based approaches are required.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by pas on Friday December 08, 2017 @04:35AM (#15877652)
> alternative transit options

I like driving, but I'm very bad at managing the stress associated with owning a car, finding a parking spot, sitting in congestion, trying to be there in time (speeding to gain a few minutes that makes no sense), hence I don't have a car.

And I wouldn't live in a place that requires one.

And I can't understand how the US is so deep in the hole with regards to mass transit / public transport, commute time, etc.

Sure, I know, it's a classic coordination problem, and I'm probably very biased by having access to a very cheap and efficient public transit network.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by greenleafjacob on Friday December 08, 2017 @01:49PM (#15880902)
Finding a parking spot is usually not an issue for US citizens since we mandate lots of parking through zoning laws.
Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:13AM (#15870670)
The problem in this case is not really "not enough money" in an absolute sense. To use the fast lane in a floating price system, you need to outbid the rest of the people. IE it's a function of income distribution.

You'd need to solve inequality. That's a great thing to do, but meanwhile we can just fix fast lanes separately. ...just in case inequality still exists in 10 years.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by harryh on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:37AM (#15870941)
The issue here is that you are prioritizing using "the fast lane in a floating price system" as the most important thing when for a lot of people that will not be the case.

They might rather spend that money on housing, or education or chewing gum or who the hell knows what.

The utility maximizing choice it to let them make their own decision as they know more about their preferences than you do. You making that decision for them destroys utility.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:17PM (#15871822)
(op)

I don't know why the downvotes, you make valid points.

I think what you say is true, but not in the context of this specific scenario. This scenario starts with a public good that is freely available to all.

In the free-for-all, everyone has equal access to the good. The total value of that is somewhat diminished in theory, because the lack of a price system causes overconsumption ... traffic jams.

In the price system, there is a luxury option. In principle, options are good. If you really want to travel fast, you can for a price. In practice though (because income distribution), most of that negotiation does not happen within one person debating if he really wants that fast lane today. There will be some people (wealthy) for whom it is almost always worthwhile and others for whom it is never worthwhile.

What I am arguing is that calling this highest value use is just false.

Choice here does not extend to substitutes. You don't get anything for taking the slow lane.

This is why I'd like to see some less theoretically pure economists tinker with this. It's possible to create a system where what you say is true. This one is impractical, but one example could be a system where fast lane drivers pay slow lane drivers. Ie, negative pricing.

Maybe you earn fast lane credits for taking the slow lane, to be used in lieu of £40. That way all commuters get a taste.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by lazerpants on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:28PM (#15874981)
Seems to me that increasing the toll price with increasing levels of road usage would be the best way to ensure that those of lesser means still have access to the express roadway.

Example: Using the express roadway once a month is $10/use. Using it 100 times is 50/use.

This is similar to how California tries to restrict water usage by the wealthy.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by em3rgent0rdr on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:16PM (#15874326)
> "Maybe you earn fast lane credits for taking the slow lane"

This does nothing to help fund roads or alleviate congestion.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by speedplane on Thursday December 07, 2017 @06:22AM (#15869152)
Agree that dollars are not the ideal measure of utility, primarily because of of diminishing marginal returns as you get more wealthy. But they are pretty good for the majority.

Appealing to a right to an egalitarian "family dinner time" is also not terribly convincing. There are plenty of rich people who don't care much about family dinner time. There are plenty of poor who would eagerly spend half their day's wages to make it home on time.

Also, I'm not sure I buy the whole no competition argument regarding highways. The competition are the non-toll highways and driving on streets. There are several free options, and a paid option. The paid option has to compete against the free ones by setting a price that corresponds to the value it provides. If all roads were a toll road, then that would be a monopoly and a broken market, but this one seems okay.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @06:38AM (#15869228)
I don't think that's fair. I'm not making an emotional appeal. I'm making (or attempting, at least) a rational one.

You can put it in diminishing marginal value terms, but I'm basically saying the same thing with fewer assumptions. Family time (or TV time or whatever) is an example to demonstrate that utility does not scale with money.

On the whole poor people commuting enjoy their free time, pleasant commutes and the other things at stake just as much as rich people. That's a fairly intuitive point.

Given that, the price that does not correspond to the value it provides^, inasmuch as income is unequally distributed. It corresponds to the wealth of the person making a decision and the value it provides.

The value of the fast lane is fairly evenly distributed between commuters. Everyone wants to get home. Everyone hates traffic. There are differences, but they're not huge on average.

What isn't evenly distributed is income. Therefore the sorting that this mechanism does is a little bit of utility based sorting and a lot of income based sorting.

If income was more even, there would be an argument for such a system. Given the actual distribution, the system is probably utility destroying.

Tolls are just a revenue raising mechanism, not an efficient allocation one.

^or to marginal costs

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by speedplane on Thursday December 07, 2017 @06:48AM (#15869270)
I see your point now. I think you could go further with it. Arguably, a poor person who has never been on an airplane would get far more "utility" from a flight on a private jet than someone who flies every day. So one could argue (a stretch), that the poor, and not the rich, should ride that toll road if it would increase total happiness more.

But that seems ridiculous, and I think the issue here is that we're conflating capitalism with utilitarianism. Utilitarianism strives to maximize utility, i.e., total happiness. Capitalism strives for efficient use of scarce resources. They often overlap, but they are fundamentally different concepts.

Going back to the example, I buy your argument that tolls are a crude way of maximizing utility. However, they are a good way of putting a scarce resource (fast commuting time) to economic use.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:29AM (#15869458)
Capitalism is another kettle of fish perhaps.

A lot of liberal market ideas (Smith, Ricardo, etc) are essentially utilitarian. That is, they use utilitarian arguments to prove their points, so they're basically tied into the same assumptions. Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage is pure utilitarianism, and is the classical economics "proof" that trade is efficient. To this day, the most important theory of trade.

Efficiency in economic theory is almost all utility efficiency. The If not, what does efficiency? I guess you could say that in this case it's about maximizing revenue from willing payers. That's ok, but calling it efficiency is misleading.

When you say putting a scarce resource to its (most productive) use, what do you mean if not the enjoyment and benefit of its users?

Incidentally, there is a cool example of an artificial market for allocating food to US food banks. It uses a highly. Manipulated fake currency, with negative pricing and competitive bidding to improve "efficiency." The trick to making it work was all about being willing to define utility in non monetary terms.

Stating efficiency in dollar terms can lead to circular logic.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by speedplane on Friday December 08, 2017 @05:30AM (#15877832)
Utilitarians have struggled for decades to properly define "utility". The approach Bentham took (the father of utilitarianism) is completely different from John Stewart Mills, also a giant in utilitarianism. "Utility" is a far more vague concept than "efficiency".

Maximizing efficiency is less complex than utilitarianism. Capitalism strives for efficient allocation of resources based on supply and demand, i.e., what people have and what people want, it makes no promises on maximizing total happiness or equitable distribution.

For a utilitarian "putting a scarce resource to its (most productive) use" would indeed be to provide the maximum amount of enjoyment. But for a capitalist, it's simply the amount that someone is willing and able to pay for it.

I know some free market proponents use utilitarian ideas to make their point, and there is overlap, but they are a bad fit. Utilitarianism is a moral theory based on maximizing total good. Capitalism is an economic system that seems to have worked more than most other systems. There are moral arguments for capitalism, but they are based on individual freedom, not collective happiness.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by Thiez on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:18AM (#15869411)
> There are plenty of poor who would eagerly spend half their day's wages to make it home on time.

How does that not drive a person insane? Let's assume an 8 hour workday (so this would be a $10/hour job). How would you feel if you knew that after working your first 4 hours of the day, you basically aren't making any more money for the next 4 hours: all the money you make from that point on will be spent on getting home early. Why not just go home after your first 4 hours? You'll be home even earlier than when you take the $40 toll road, and you bring home the same amount of money for half the hours worked?

It seems to me that if you are regularly spending half your day's wages just to make it home on time, you are urgently in need of a different job (either closer to home or with different hours).

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dalbasal on Thursday December 07, 2017 @08:29AM (#15869788)
Low income and few choices are pretty interlinked. That's why you find absurd commute/labour, childcare/labour or other ratios at the bottom.
Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by speedplane on Friday December 08, 2017 @05:38AM (#15877867)
I'm surprised by your surprise, this insanity happens all the time. Parents miss baseball games, kids birthdays, and anniversaries because they are stuck in the office or at the plant. People work underpaid jobs for years with the hope that if they stick it out, they might get their reward. Parents sacrifice their entire lives to give their children a better shot.

The world is tough and trade-offs between time, money, and future opportunity are constantly being made at every income level.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by wyager on Thursday December 07, 2017 @08:27AM (#15869770)
> On top of all that, roads are not "full" markets. This is not a free market solution. You can add a price system. but you don't have supply side effects.

The solution is to auction road capacity and use the auction proceeds to fund maintenance of that road and construction of others. Besides being vastly more efficient (from a market perspective) than an arbitrary fixed rate, it also means that resources are allocated towards roads more efficiently (if your fund allocation mechanism makes some sense).

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dredmorbius on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:29AM (#15870201)
How do you propose to run an auction on autos entering a given roadway?
Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by thaeli on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:19AM (#15871340)
The dynamic toll pricing, based on utilization, on this roadway is very nearly an auction.
Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by dredmorbius on Friday December 08, 2017 @01:02AM (#15876975)
Yes, but that's not an auction: one bidder raising over another.

You might be able to do this in a two-at-a-time case, with two lanes of cars. Problem is that the lane behind the car that consistently underbids is being affected by a third party's decision.

It seems that there's a problem with the feedback/response cycle in one-at-a-time pricing systems. The more effective systems approach is to set a scheduled or contingent pricing, perhaps at 10-15 minute increments, minimum. A regular schedule (as with peak / off-peak rail or transit schedules) is another option.

Hence: how does OP propose to run an auction?

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by jnty on Thursday December 07, 2017 @06:28AM (#15869191)
"For poor people, $40 means you can't afford a date night this week. It's never worth it"

That's a slightly naive view of what 'poor' means. Try "can't eat this week."

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by OJFord on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:19AM (#15869417)
You've misunderstood GP - the $40 is not being taken from the hypothetical poor person - it's a 'get home in time for date night' product being sold for $40, so not affording date night means not doing it; not spending the $40.

The ability to afford food for the week is then unaffected, as it would be if the figure were $4 or $400.

Re:$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology by pdkl95 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:55AM (#15870447)
However, this does impact gas, which could be significant if the difference in time is large enough.

(This is assuming that the poor person is not driving e.g. a (more expensive, fewer available as used) hybrid car that can idle in traffic without wasting gas)