News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by upofadown on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:44PM (#15793247)
>The most common usage of TPMs is to protect disk encryption keys - Microsoft Bitlocker defaults to storing its encryption key in the TPM, automatically unlocking the drive if the boot process is unmodified.

I had to go look this up. Apparently there is mode of full disk encryption that automatically decrypts the disk every time you boot up if some stuff has not been modified. That strikes me as quite pointless.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLocker#Encryption_modes

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by lemoncucumber on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:03PM (#15793355)
There are basically three options for how to do disk encryption unlocking:

* The way that e.g. macOS FileVault works, where you enter your password in EFI, before the machine boots and before the OS is loaded.

* The way that e.g. iOS works, where there is an unencrypted partition containing the OS (mounted read-only), and an encrypted partition containing the data. The OS boots off the unencrypted partition, then you have to enter your password to unlock the data partition.

* The mode you're describing, where the unlocking happens automatically if and only if nothing has been tampered with (the encrypted hard drive hasn't been swapped into another machine, etc). With this mode you're relying on the fact that when the OS boots it won't let you do anything without entering a password, even though the disk is already unlocked. Assuming there are no bugs in the login screen, no way to physically read the contents of RAM (where the encryption keys are), and no way to access the contents of the TPM, this approach is just as secure.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by TehCorwiz on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:31PM (#15793491)
> "Assuming there are no bugs in the login screen, [assuming] no way to physically read the contents of RAM (where the encryption keys are), and [assuming] no way to access the contents of the TPM, this approach is just as secure.

That's a lot of assumptions. Or, as Jayne Cobb might say, "I'm smelling a lot of 'if' coming off this plan."

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wildmusings on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:41PM (#15793527)
You're hitting a pet peeve of mine, which is the "all or nothing" misunderstanding of security. You should evaluate security against a threat model.

Those assumptions that you criticize hold true for the realistic threat faced by the vast vast majority of people: opportunistic taking of personal data by device thieves, intruders, and others with physical access to the machine. If you are worried about more sophisticated attacks, then you can easily ratchet up BitLocker's security by requiring a boot-time PIN, dongle, or password in addition to the TPM/SecureBoot measurements. You will also want to be more selective about the hardware that you use.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by TehCorwiz on Monday November 27, 2017 @10:24PM (#15794034)
I meant only that the default behavior makes a non-trivial set of assumptions about the higher-level layers. Of course there are trade-offs, especially between usability/user expectations and security. Honestly I was just trying to shoe-horn a fun quote into the conversation. ;)
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wpowiertowski on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:08PM (#15793655)
FileVault does not require a password input at EFI. It decrypts user data in memory after user login
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by tempay on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @02:22AM (#15795143)
I thought current versions of FileVault encrypt the entire OS and the login screen is just a fancy boot partition?
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by Tsiklon on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @04:21AM (#15795633)
You're mostly correct.

On a CoreStorage Filevault 2 system, the Recovery HD is used as the boot loader, calling an EFI program named "boot.efi" present on the filesystem.

On a APFS system things are a bit different; the Recovery HD is still used, however this is now a Logical volume presented from the main volume group, with the update to High Sierra a Firmware upgrade was pushed out to all supported systems enabling the EFI to grok APFS.

Edit removed terminal output

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wildmusings on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:29PM (#15793480)
This isn't just one of many possible modes, it is automatically enabled on pretty much every new Windows laptop.

I used to work on BitLocker so I'm biased, but it's not pointless at all. If the hardware configuration, firmware, bootloader, boot settings, etc. are unchanged, as measured by Secure Boot and then each subsequent boot component, the TPM releases the key and automatically unlocks the drive. From that point forward, security depends on OS-level authentication and authorization. Even assuming poor hardware-level security, this will still protect against the only reasonable threat faced by most people: access to private data by device thieves or physical intruders.

If you are in the tiny minority that actually wants to protect yourself against sophisticated actors who have exploits for the OS-level security, or the ability to extract keys from a running system or with a cold boot attack, you will want to be selective about your hardware and you might want to additionally rely on a PIN, password, or dongle in conjunction with the TPM/SecureBoot protection.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by Nullabillity on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @04:04AM (#15795556)
And how are users supposed to recover their data when your system fails, and they have no idea what the key is?
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by acqq on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @04:28AM (#15795672)
For Bitlocker it was necessary to print the key after it was generated and keep it somewhere because even some software updates and reboots could get you a screen where you had to type many many numbers and letters -- you could not use some password of yours there. Which wasn't pleasant.

That meant that if you wanted to travel you had to have the printed key with you, or at such reboots at least phone somebody to who you have given that key. Which isn't a problem in an organization, were that somebody are the admins, who were those who made the keys before they gave you the notebook.

I don't know how it works currently, if MS invented something more convenient recently.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by zaarn on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @06:32AM (#15796229)
You can recover using your Live Account, which contains a copy of the key.

But you still have to type it in.

I do this regularly as a recent W10 upgrade broke the SoftTPM in my Ryzen CPU (no longer recognised at boot), so I type it in everytime I boot windows (so once or three times a month).

It's very resilient since it has a built-in Error Detection Code for each 6 digit pair entered, if you make a typo, it likely will immediately complain and prevents entering any more of the code.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wildmusings on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @07:06AM (#15796451)
You should use the manage-bde cli tool, or the bitlocker GUI, to remove the TPM protector and replace it with a passphrase. You’ll need to set one of the group policy options to enable using a passphrase.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by zaarn on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @07:36AM (#15796632)
Yeah but I don't want that. I want to use the TPM, Windows just broke it.

For the few times in the month where I need Windows, it's not worth the effort.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wildmusings on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:30AM (#15797556)
Have you tried running tpm.msc and resetting it? Maybe also try resetting it in the bios/firmware? Those seem to usually do the trick for solving TPM issues.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by zaarn on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:59AM (#15797774)
The issue was actually caused by changing the CPU, the TPM was then reset by the BIOS after the first powerup. I could try it again though.

From my previous experience, Windows will happily insert the decryption key into the TPM once you enter the recovery code.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wildmusings on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @12:09PM (#15799071)
It usually will but I think there’s something about TPM ownership that sometimes requires manual reset through tpm.msc and/or firmware options.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by mjg59 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @04:56AM (#15795815)
The default behaviour is that the secret is uploaded to Microsoft and tied to your Live credentials. You just log into the recovery site and are given an unlock code.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by upofadown on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:47PM (#15793557)
The interesting thing about whole disk encryption is that it is not really breakable if a reasonably long password/phrase is used. Using a TPM adds a huge attack surface for no practical reason. A large enough attack surface in this case that it is almost for sure going to be broken. The user only is going to be entering the password/phrase once per boot.

Things are different in the case of something like a phone. In that case you are pretty much forced to use some low entropy key that could otherwise be brute forced. Then a secure hardware device makes sense, particularly if the phone does not use the device for everything but the kitchen sink as in this case.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by mjg59 on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:51PM (#15793577)
There's a huge practical benefit - the user gains disk encryption without having to remember a secure passphrase. That's a big deal.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by wildmusings on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:06PM (#15793646)
Exactly and to elaborate, it means that the only secret a user needs to remember is a short PIN for OS-level authentication. The TPM's protection against modified boot and OS components make a brute force very difficult. Further, Windows will actually feed that PIN to the TPM for purposes of OS-level authentication, which leverages the TPM's enforcement of rate limits and lockouts in addition to OS-level implementations of those protections.

A nice improvement would be to use a PIN entered at boot for purposes of drive decryption and then automatically pass it through to the OS-level login.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by cm2187 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @03:39AM (#15795441)
And for a server it enables to reboot autonomously while protecting you from someone pulling a hard drive from the array (think server colocation).
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by brians on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @01:47AM (#15794990)
It sounds like your threat model doesn’t interactive hardware adversaries. Mine does, so worry about how they might capture my long pass phrase is a big concern.

Well, to whom do I tell my long passphrase? Right: my computer. Every morning. Is it running the same software as last night, no keyloggers, etc?

That’s what the TPM is for.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by elehack on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:48PM (#15793271)
If the machine (1) has soldered-on RAM (preventing cold boot attacks) and (2) the portions of the OS that run prior to user authentication are sufficiently secure, then it really doesn't seem to be a problem.

Last I knew, Windows does not like to let you enable this mode in a machine with removable RAM that don't have compensating security features.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by cryptonector on Monday November 27, 2017 @11:23PM (#15794385)
And also no Thunderbolt/Firewire, and/or has an IOMMU and the OS uses it.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by rootsudo on Monday November 27, 2017 @11:29PM (#15794421)
I'm sorry, what?

Windows 100% allows you to use TPM + bitlocker and secure the keys on AD on any sort of computer, regardless of removable ram or not.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by xmodem on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:49PM (#15793274)
in what sense is it pointless? If the attacker can’t log into the system, and can’t modify the boot process without invalidating the TPM, then so long as the TPM is reasonably tamper proof it’s perfectly sufficient for the 99% use case for full disk encryption - a stolen laptop
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by tinus_hn on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @05:17AM (#15795912)
It doesn’t decrypt the whole disk every time because that takes forever. It releases the key so you can use the disk while it’s encrypted.

It is kind of useless as it’s practically impossible to keep secrets from a local attacker on the Intel platform, but against an attacker that’s not very determined it helps. At least you can’t just boot a Linux cd or put the disk in another machine to get the data.

Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by tedunangst on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @12:40AM (#15794722)
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by Neil44 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @03:18AM (#15795335)
It prevents someone with physical access just taking the hard drive out and mounting it on another machine to read the data.
Re:Potential impact of the Intel ME vulnerability by gruez on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:24PM (#15793744)
>That strikes me as quite pointless.

evil maid attacks