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Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by baddox on Saturday November 25, 2017 @08:22AM (#15775872)
I agree with everything you said, but you can also go too far in that direction of analysis. If you let the empirical gain in traction to sneak in as a factor in your analysis, you effectively have a tautology, and you lose all predictive power, similar to the misuse of the phrase “survival of the fittest,” where you conclude that variant A was “clearly” more “fit” than variant B because A survived and B didn’t.

It’s still important to recognize that a variant might “win” because of factors completely unrelated to its “fitness,” like an organization using its market power in an unrelated sector to promote its variant, or even just good old fashioned dumb luck.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by jasode on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:29PM (#15776822)
>, but you can also go too far in that direction of analysis. If you let the empirical gain in traction to sneak in as a factor in your analysis, you effectively have a tautology, and you lose all predictive power

That's a good point. I'd have to give it more thought on how much predictive power we're supposed to ascribe to multiple-dimensions.

Maybe multiple dimensions is a better thinking tool for experimentation than prediction. This frees one from being paralyzed by the status quo. For example, a 1990s entrepreneur sees that the internet is becoming popular and maybe he thinks he can sell books on it. But then he goes to Barnes & Noble and sees that people are pulling real books off the shelves, taking them to the lounge chairs, and then leisurely sitting down and flipping through the pages before buying. If the dimension of "in-store experience" constrains the worldview, it will not occur to the entrepreneur that other dimensions like near-infinite selection in a "virtual bookshelf" and convenient delivery to the home will be prioritized over the store's lounge chairs. One doesn't know if those other dimensions for "book buying" matter more to buyers until he tries it.

Another well-known example of constrained single-dimensional thinking is analyzing the Blackberry vs the iPhone in 2007. Both the CEO of Research In Motion and Steve Ballmer of Microsoft were focused on the physical tactile keyboard. They saw that the iPhone obviously lacked real QWERTY buttons, so they both predicted it would flop in the marketplace. Steve Jobs' Apple team ignored the dimension that RIM & Microsoft used for criticism. Instead, they looked at the dimension of "screen size" and made it larger. The also bet on the dimension of "capacitive touch screen" which enables finger gestures. These were the dimensions that a billion smartphone buyers ultimately preferred. The Blackberry was cheaper and buyers still preferred the iPhone touchscreens.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by psyc on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:50PM (#15776940)
I was going to make the same comment about the tautology in pure survival, although I do acknowledge your parent comment’s point that there could be a more accurate predictive metric. We don’t want to deny that there is an element of “irrationality” at play, just because there is a winner.
Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by doiwin on Saturday November 25, 2017 @08:29AM (#15775891)
So how do we decide if qwerty or dvorak is fitter?
Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by ghaff on Saturday November 25, 2017 @08:36AM (#15775922)
Well,you try to design a test of typing speed and fatigue but it's very challenging because all your subjects are probably already familiar with qwerty keyboards even if they don't touch-type.

And then you conclude abstract fitness is irrelevant anyway because everyone uses qwerty and there are:

- Advantages in everyone using more or less the same thing

- No way you're going to make everyone incur huge costs and switch

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by humanrebar on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:23AM (#15776276)
> So how do we decide if qwerty or dvorak is fitter?

Ideally, stay out of it and let others decide for themselves.

We don't need to decide that bikes are better than cars. We ought to just support both (paved roads, traffic laws, places to keep your vehicle while you shop, etc.).

We don't need to decide that SSDs are better than disc drives. We just need to support the latest SATA standard.

So, for qwerty vs dvorak, we just need to support appropriate USB standards. And at the software level, we need to let the user customize their keys from time to time (remap hjkl in vim, remap wasd in video games, etc.).

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by baddox on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:29AM (#15776305)
So do we just invest the same amount of public funds into automobile infrastructure and bicycle infrastructure? That seems overly simplistic.
Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by y4mi on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:44AM (#15776375)
also impossible, because they're mostly done within the same context.

it's pretty rare to get dedicated cyclist lanes which were created separately to the rest of the road.

it's generally created simultaneously.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by baddox on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:57AM (#15776438)
There is still always some balance of priorities, even if it’s not made explicit in official budgets. That balance needs to be chosen somehow.
Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by baddox on Saturday November 25, 2017 @09:42AM (#15776126)
I realize now that my first response only addresses how an individual might ideally decide whether to switch to Dvorak. Deciding which layout is “fitter” across the globe (or whichever language regions currently use QWERTY and can feasibly use Dvorak) is a much more difficult cost/benefit analysis in practice. To calculate cost, you would need to look at the costs of mass manufacturing new keyboards and/or patching and distributing the software that drives keyboard input. To calculate benefits, you would need to do large scale studies on the speed/productivity benefits of Dvorak over QWERTY, both for first-time learners and switchers. Heck, you’d even need to estimate the political costs (for governments, large corporations, standards bodies, etc.) of persuading the change, as well as the unavoidable costs of having both layouts exist in the wild during the transition period.

This is so daunting that it feels nearly impossible, and indeed, I suspect any rigorous cost/benefit analysis would show that the benefits of any new layout (even the technically best layout) is not worth the costs of switching away from any single ubiquitous standard (even the technically worst layout imaginable), at least not in any reasonable time frame.

My guess is that the best approach is to maintain one ubiquitous standard, and change it very gradually, and to gradually reduce the costs, e.g. by implementing easy layout-switching software in major operating systems, or even bolder approaches like supporting virtualization/containerization of personal software settings and development environments in major operating systems.

What if I could just sit down at any modern networked PC, type in a URL and some authentication, and immediately be running my own exact customized computing/development environment, complete with my keyboard layout, text editor, development dependencies, etc.? That would be awesome. As long as the hardware keyboard layout is roughly compatible with my software settings (and I don’t rely on printed labels on the physical keyboard), most of the costs of choosing a keyboard layout (other than the fixed costs of learning it) go away.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by baddox on Saturday November 25, 2017 @09:19AM (#15776050)
Ideally, by recording (as best you can, and estimating after that) the cost per unit time of using a non-standard keyboard layout (including the cost of learning it and the cost of occasionally needing to use computers that don’t use it) and the benefit per unit time of using that layout.

Either the benefit per unit time eventually surpasses the cost per unit time (since some costs are fixed, namely the initial learning), or it doesn’t. Only switch if benefit surpasses cost in a time window you’re comfortable with.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by bobajeff on Saturday November 25, 2017 @09:46AM (#15776145)
I've often wondered why alphabetical order isn't the default on phones. Given that most of the population that uses phones didn't learn to type.

It really bothers me actually.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by MereInterest on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:30AM (#15776310)
People know the alphabet as a one-dimensional object. Unless your keyboard has 26 keys all in order, the multiple rows don't correspond to an existing mental model. At that point, you can either choose qwerty, which pleases anyone who already knows it, or you can make a sort-of alphabetical layout, which pleases nobody.

I'd be curious about your statement the most people who use phones didn't learn to type. Is that for a particular age group? Alternatively, for the developing world, where phones are more common than computers? I'm having difficulty seeing the justification for the statement.

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by bobajeff on Saturday November 25, 2017 @03:00PM (#15777675)
If you know the alphabet you can easily guess where the keys will be. (In a alphabetically ordered keyboard)

Do you believe that most people who use phones know how to type?

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by MereInterest on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:59PM (#15779355)
If the keys are laid out in a 1x26 keyboard, yes. If the keys are laid out in a more usable way, then no. If I can see the key 'j', I cannot guess whether 'm' will be to the right or left of it, without knowing the length of the row, and considering it at all times.

I would describe today's society as one in which typing is necessary for any basic tasks, and is universal, and so I don't see why smartphone users would be different from the norm in terms of typing ability. Are you using "typing" to refer only to "touch typing"?

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by baddox on Saturday November 25, 2017 @09:58AM (#15776188)
That is a good point, although one could easily point out that “alphabetical order” is also a completely arbitrary convention, and we could just as easily argue whether we ought to change how we teach that order. Perhaps a different ordering of the alphabet, like sorting by usage frequency or grouping the vowels and consonants together, would help everyone learn to read and write. The same type of argument could apply to nearly anything. For example, in the English language, perhaps we should standardize spelling. This isn’t a novel suggestion. Mark Twain famously and perhaps apocryphally made such a suggestion. Why not just teach everyone in the world Esperanto or Lojban?
Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by bobajeff on Saturday November 25, 2017 @10:29AM (#15776308)
But my argument didn't involve teaching anything to anyone. It was simply accepting the fact that most people are more familiar to alphabetical order.

What benefit is there to having everyone hunt and peck on a phone to keep with a convention that only really makes sense to typists?

Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by c22 on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:33PM (#15776846)
The hunt-and-peckers will still be hunting and pecking on an ABC keyboard, at least the typists don't have to. Also, the first adopters of smartphones probably did have overwhelming keyboard experience, so I can totally see how we got here. Fortunately in phone land the default is just that and easily changed by anyone who thinks another layout would work better.
Re:How often do superior alternatives fail to catch on? by dilawar on Sunday November 26, 2017 @12:35AM (#15779580)
The one who catch-on is fitter, and the fitter one catches on. Circular logic is complete.

Game theory literature should have this problem?