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Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by bmcusick on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @12:37PM (#15705660)
I'm not a vegan, or interested in becoming one, but this "study" is just stupid. Just look at some of the basic assumptions:

"researcher Mary Beth Hall began by estimating the impact of converting all land now used by the livestock industry to cropland for human food"

Why on earth would you do that? Livestock are much less efficient at using land than crops, in terms of how much land you need to produce a calorie. Furthermore, a HUGE percentage of our current crops are used to feed livestock. Without even Googleing it, the assumption should be that we would not use all pasture land for crop land. The total amount of land under crops might even go down under the vegan scenario, since eating the food directly would be more efficient.

Also:

"Burning the excess waste would add some 2 million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, they estimate."

First off, is burning the most likely way this would be disposed of? Why not compost.

Second, crops are carbon neutral. They take CO2 from the atmosphere when growing, so how can they add CO2 to the atmosphere when burnt?

"Fertilizer demands would also go up while the supply of animal manure dwindled."

Again, only true if the amount of crops increased. I'm doubtful.

The points about nutrition are better made though. Animal products are rich in some minerals and vitamins that are sparse in a vegan diet. Not entirely missing, but sparse. But then that's why I'm not a vegan.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by JetSetWilly on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @12:46PM (#15705778)
Also, not all pasture land is suitable for growing crops. Certainly in my country there's lots of marginal land and hills that sheep are left to wander over that are in no way suitable for growing any crops on. In this way humans can extract calories and protein from land that would otherwise be useless.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by nikbackm on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @12:51PM (#15705835)
Not so sure, if the animals can find something to eat on the land, then it should be possible to grow something humans can eat as well.

Maybe not wheat and such, but other, more hardy plants.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by mikestew on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @12:58PM (#15705929)
Not so sure, if the animals can find something to eat on the land, then it should be possible to grow something humans can eat as well.

You can try to grow it, but good luck hauling the tractor, plow, and combine up that steep hill that only a sheep can traverse. It's not a matter of "can I grow corn in that soil?", as you can grow corn on a rock if you throw enough fertilizer at it. It's a matter of "can I grow corn at any kind of scale that doesn't involve tilling and harvesting by hand?" And for context, keep in mind that people are killed in tractor rollover events all the time as a result of trying to traverse an incline.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by elif on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:57PM (#15706670)
except in the US that's not really the case: https://factoryfarmmap.org/#animal:cattle;location:US;year:2...
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by colechristensen on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:08PM (#15706062)
A lot of cattle is raised on semi-arid land which is essentially left in it's natural state. The land can support sparse grasses and shrubs, but no agriculture without significant irrigation. Because there is so little vegetation development the area needed per head is huge, but it's fine because the land can't and won't be used for anything else. More to the point, humans don't need this extra land for food with our without eating meat.

There might be something to be said about limiting confined animal production fed with our most fertile crop land, but the same arguments aren't relevant for all cattle production.

From an ecological perspective, you're not losing wild nature for agriculture, cattle are just displacing grazing animals which would have been there otherwise.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by njarboe on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:18PM (#15706198)
Landscapes grazed by human protected food animals are not much more "natural" than farmed landscapes. The grazing density of cattle, sheep, and goats is much higher than natural grazers and alters the ecosystems dramatically. This is mostly due to the lack of predators, which would cause the herds to move more often and have lower density. Wilderness landscapes can also have this problem when apex predators are removed and grazers eat and breed in peace. See Yellowstone and the reintroduction of the wolf.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by mgarfias on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:56PM (#15706657)
You can mimic a lot of that with rotational grazing.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by rabboRubble on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @02:51PM (#15707155)
My cousin has a ranch in the west. The land is incredibly poor, diatomaious earth (she finds dinasaur bones!), has very little natural water (and some of what little water she does have is hot spring water), and where grass grows the land is covered in sparse bunch grass.

Her head of cattle to land ratio is some crazy number like 100 acres to a cow/calf pair. Could be less IDK exactly. Consequnetly she owns thousands of acres to feed her cattle.

There is not enough water there to irrigate non-native edible species over her thousands acre ranch. She'd drain every creek, stream, and river to make a farm happen there.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by qume on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @12:59PM (#15705947)
If that is really why youre not vegan I recommend the book 'How not to die' by Michael Gregor.

The health benefits of a whole food plant based diet are astonishing, and the whole missing vitamin mineral thing is trivially taken care of.

Becoming vegan will lead to immediate and long term health benefits. And from personal experience its much easier and more fun than you could dare to expect.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by Glyptodon on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:03PM (#15705991)
...and I'm sure eating an egg here and there from your back-yard hen (AKA living garbage disposal) will absolutely ruin all of it... /s

I don't disagree that theres a lot of room and a some benefits to reducing meat consumption. But I don't think that's the same as it being sensible for everyone to be vegan.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by Overtonwindow on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:27PM (#15706310)
Vegans will always say their way is better. There's a commitment there with zero room for compromise, and I think IMO for many it's a fad.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by icc97 on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:44PM (#15707565)
For many for who it is just a diet, often it's just a fad. But for those who stick to it, it is very important to them and it most certainly isn't a fad. So veganism is certainly not a fad, but that doesn't stop some people treating it as such. But those people who try it are welcome to, at the very least it will bring them some perspective on a life of eating meat.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by eighthnate on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:44PM (#15707561)
It's not a fad. Veganism is like a cult. Vegans are starving their infants to death for their "religion".

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/wjqbem/judge-convicts...

Plant-only diet is terrible for humans just like a meat-only diet. The best diet for humans is a balanced diet.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by Overtonwindow on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @05:12PM (#15708342)
..and pets...
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by superb_herb on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:07PM (#15706040)
As you clearly know, life is about balance. I'd say the ideal diet is mostly vegan, with exceptions made for very well-made cheese (in France), the occasional egg from a pastured hen, a steak once every few months from a cow who got to run around and eat grass, and wild fish once a week or so.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by iamcasen on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:56PM (#15706655)
My wife used to believe this, and then she got so sick she nearly needed a blood transfusion. Dietary needs are not universal in the slightest.

She cannot have carbs or sugars, but she needs certain kinds of meat like fish or chicken.

The only way to find this stuff out is to have detailed dietary analysis and bloodwork. You might be surprised what you find out about your own body.

That being said, yes eating nutritious plants is never a bad idea. Being vegan on the other hand, is probably overboard for 90% of humans.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by bmcusick on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @04:15PM (#15707886)
I find much greater benefits avoiding vegan foods like sugar, excess alcohol, and overly processed carbohydrates. I've seen "vegan" brownies and cake.

My diet is rich in minimally processed foods like vegetables, fruit, flour I mill myself (I have a home mill), but also meat, egg, and dairy.

Liver is an amazing nutritionally dense food, and there's no benefit to not eating it. Eggs are great too. Fish are great. There's nothing wrong with red meat either in reasonable quantities.

All of which is saying that I see "vegan" as sort of orthogonal to dietary health. It includes things that are bad for you and excludes things that are good for you.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by Splines on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:21PM (#15706223)
> And from personal experience its much easier and more fun than you could dare to expect.

Honestly curious - how is this fun? I try to eat less meat for a personal medical reason and finding non-meat dishes is a hassle, and at some restaurants it's impossible.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by trowawee on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:47PM (#15707595)
I would suggest exploring the cuisines of cultures that are predominantly vegetarian. I was very much a meat-and-potatoes person growing up in the American Midwest, and I haven't moved completely away from meat-eating, but I eat far less now because I learned how to cook Indian, Thai, and Vietnamese food at home. Cuisines where vegetarianism isn't a second-class citizen tend to put more effort into making good-tasting vegetarian dishes.
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by djaychela on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:25PM (#15706286)
Whereabouts (country) are you? I've just started cutting drastically down on meat consumption (maybe eat it twice a week now), and it's been really easy (in the UK).
Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by eighthnate on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:41PM (#15707539)
> The health benefits of a whole food plant based diet are astonishing

No. The health benefits of a balanced diet is astonishing. Vegan diets are just as bad for humans as meatatarian diets.

> and the whole missing vitamin mineral thing is trivially taken care of.

It isn't.

> Becoming vegan will lead to immediate and long term health benefits.

No it won't. Having a balanced diet will. That's why all the oldest people are omnivores.

Humans are built to be omnivores.

A vegan diet is a terrible diet for humans. That's why it has to be augmented so much. The cult of veganism has to be countered just like any other cult.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by qume on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @10:48PM (#15710139)
There is so much to unpack and criticize here, but just for fun, i'll bite on this one:

>> and the whole missing vitamin mineral thing is trivially taken care of.

>It isn't.

I'm dead serious when I say that if you can demonstrate this, you'll be handed a PHd on a platter. Possibly a Nobel prize.

Get writing!

PS sorry can't resist, you'll get another Nobel for publishing how humans are 'built to be...'.

And the typical vegan diet is terrible. A whole food plant based diet is fundamentally different - they only share the fact that they are based on non animal products

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by eighthnate on Thursday November 16, 2017 @03:40PM (#15716397)
It's so funny that every topic on veganism, you are always to be found.

> I'm dead serious when I say that if you can demonstrate this, you'll be handed a PHd on a platter. Possibly a Nobel prize.

Are you dead serious?

> PS sorry can't resist, you'll get another Nobel for publishing how humans are 'built to be...'.

Well considering we aren't obligate carnivores and we aren't obligate herbivores, I wonder what we are?

Eating meat, just like eating vegetables, fruits, etc made us who we are. We are actually built by our food consumption evolutionarily speaking.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16990.epdf

> And the typical vegan diet is terrible.

Yes. Because it's not ones humans are designed for.

> A whole food plant based diet is fundamentally different - they only share the fact that they are based on non animal products

Yikes. That just sounds like a rebranding of a terrible idea. Kind of like how "neo-nazis" rebranded to alt-right.

Balanced diet including meat, veggies, etc > vegan/whole food diet. Human society has proven this to be true. The dominant human society is the balanced diet society. No vegan society nor meat-only society truly exists.

Re:What would happen if all Americans went vegan? by icc97 on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @04:02PM (#15707741)
The study clearly takes an extreme view point. I agree with your criticisms, and mostly it seems fairly poor science.

I can see some benefit of looking for the extreme though, it's looking for a theoretical optimum.

I'd have thought they could do studies of land use in India for the most extreme possible switch.