News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by ImaCake on Sunday November 12, 2017 @03:20PM (#15682446)
One of the best things about learning German has been the access to German news media. I find Suedeutsch Zeitung and a few others hold themselves to a higher quality than almost any english newspaper I've read. It's good to see english media take note!
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by patall on Sunday November 12, 2017 @03:31PM (#15682487)
As a german, its nice to hear something like that since people here also complain about the quality of journalism going down. People are also complaining that public broadcasting (and having to pay for it) but I think that they are the one of the reasons we have good journalism as the set a standard which you will lose audience to if you report too much bias or show too much advertising.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by emsy on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:41PM (#15682777)
This is certainly true. One channel broadcasts the evening news (Abendschau) from 20 or so years ago and you can clearly see how diligently they try to adhere to journalistic objectivity (in choice of adjectives for example) whereas today it seems they don't even try it anymore.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by FRex on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:48PM (#15682807)
Having a public broadcaster means nothing. We (Poland) also have one but the quality of their websites and TV channels was always painfully average and since 2015 it's outright propaganda.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by chiaro on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:36PM (#15682752)
I think no people anywhere at any time has been happy with their media.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by futurix on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:59PM (#15683260)
Well, German public TV and radio isn’t nearly as good as the newspaper cited in the article. Compared with BBC - it’s certainly is not a great example of spending public funds.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by raphman on Monday November 13, 2017 @12:59AM (#15684596)
I'd like to object. True, the mainstream channels ARD and ZDF show a little bit too many quiz shows and music shows - and the main local radio stations are very lean on interesting content. But there is a bunch of public TV channels and radio stations that provide high-quality content - 3sat, arte (culture), ARD-alpha (science, education), Phoenix (politics, documentaries), Deutschlandfunk, Bayern 2, Bayern 5, and many more.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Semaphor on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:25AM (#15684851)
And yet most of the money I pay the GEZ, sorry, for the Rundfunkbeitrag, goes to exactly ARD/ZDF. I have neither TV nor Radio, but I'd happily pay what I do to the stations you mentioned. But between quiz shows, reality tv, football licenses and badly researched shows like Frontal 21 I hate paying.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by fbender on Monday November 13, 2017 @07:24AM (#15685959)
These stations are all part of ARD (actually a "conglomerate" of Rundfunkanstalten der Länder) and ZDF (except Deutschlandfunk, which is a separate entity). So yeah, you already pay for these stations. If you'd watch / listen to them, they'd probably get more attention from the managers and thus the content will be pushed more into the mass channels. Actually, some of the stations are more like incubators for new concepts and shows that they hope to put into the main/mass channels (though others are special interest channels).
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Vik1ng on Sunday November 12, 2017 @08:42PM (#15683647)
My issue is not with the 10-20% news and documentaries, but all the other stuff they do...
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by cJ0th on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:21AM (#15685295)
Exactly. And worst of all, all the good things they do are to be found on tv & radio channels the average person does hardly consume or at times when nobody watches tv.

And this, I think, is highly problematic as it distorts the way Germans see their country dramatically. Many Germans, I believe, think they fulfill their 'democratic duty' by watching the 'Tagesschau' (the news at 8 pm)

As far as politics is concerned, this shows offers almost zero journalistic value. It's only politicians selling their agenda to the audience (the same goes for prime time talk shows). The only good thing about it is that all parties get enough time to bring their point across and non-political groups are also allowed to have their say. The problem, however, is that it is not in the interest of any party/NGO to actually inform the viewers. They all only include facts when it suits their agenda. What the audience is left with is an incomplete picture of the situation. And based on this (and not well well-researched lists of the pros and cons to the solutions proposed) they cast their vote. Of course, the public broadcasters do also provide these missing information. But you have to listen to Deutschlandfunk radio, search out special documentaries on Arte which are broadcasted at irregular times or watch political discussions at Phoenix at times when you want to go to bed.

The Tagesthemen (which is the late edition of the Tagesschau) is already much better. Some time ago they had a very good comment on mass surveilance that was totally on point. And the average, not Tagesthemen-watching person? They still think "meh .. I've got nothing to hide".

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by branchless on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:09PM (#15682641)
UK "journalism" is simply stunningly bad now. When I think back 20 years ago the gap now is huge. I don't agree with the politics of The Telegraph but leaving that aside its slide is so sad. They now run stories about characters in TV programs as though they are actually real. All UK papers are now so bad I'd advise not reading any, including the FT which is simply terrible. They cannot die soon enough, the damage presently done by pandering to big bank advertisers is huge.

I think if you re-incarnated and showed the editor of the Telegraph from 1950 the web-site, just the difference between the background colour of "sponsored" stories versus actual stories, he'd blow his brains out. Never mind the actual content.

Do German papers do this, mix paid and actual content and attempt to show the paid as similar to real? Although this is nowhere near as bad as The Telegraph following the instructions of disgruntled banker advertisers:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne/why-i-...

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by miles on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:31PM (#15682725)
> UK "journalism" is simply stunningly bad now.

The Guardian[0] has done some great reporting in recent years[1]:

Notable scoops include the 2011 News International phone hacking scandal, in particular the hacking of murdered English teenager Milly Dowler's phone. The investigation led to the closure of the UK's biggest selling Sunday newspaper, and one of the highest circulation newspapers in the world, the News of the World. The newspaper also released news of the secret collection of Verizon telephone records held by US President Barack Obama's administration in June 2013, and subsequently revealed the existence of the PRISM surveillance program after it was leaked to the paper by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. In 2016, it led the investigation into the Panama Papers, exposing the then British Prime Minister David Cameron's links to offshore bank accounts.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by jsmthrowaway on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:32PM (#15682727)
No mention of The Guardian? I have a pretty high opinion of their newsroom, and donate regularly. They’ve been doing solid investigative work lately, even on American topics.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by psergeant on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:38PM (#15683173)
Big problem with the Guardian is not making clear enough visual differentiation between their blogs — where anyone can write any old shit — and their actual reporting and editorial
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Chestofdraw on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:26AM (#15685488)
Opinion pieces have a bright orange banner and use that same colour elsewhere in the articles, it's also used on the links to the opinion pieces. What else could they be doing to point out the difference? How could they make it more clear than heavy use of colour coding?
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by dingoonline on Sunday November 12, 2017 @07:48PM (#15683450)
It was such a stupid decision for them to combine their opinion and editorial section with Comment Is Free. The latter being pretty trashy most of the time.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by cbcoutinho on Sunday November 12, 2017 @07:00PM (#15683261)
How do you know the difference? Is it in the banner or the url?
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by gsnedders on Monday November 13, 2017 @12:17AM (#15684450)
I think the only real way nowadays is whether /commentisfree/ appears in the URL and it isn't clearly marked as an Editorial.

I have a hypothesis that if the breadcrumb says "home › opinion" with no third level then you're in CIF, but I have no real evidence that that is actually reliable.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Fnoord on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:24PM (#15683123)
The Intercept [1] is arguably British. It has a focus on UK/US/BR, with a Brazilian version as well.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intercept

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by arca_vorago on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:34AM (#15684881)
I did and still do have a high opinion of the guardian, but that perception has been shifted somewhat when one of the senior tech editors tried to argue with me that foss is dead and no one cares about it anymore...
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by brusch64 on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:44AM (#15685550)
Not everything is well in Germany.

The "Stern", one of the big German magazines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_(magazine), took a big nosedive in quality in my opinion.

3 or 4 years ago (i am not sure when this exactly happend) they did a "redesign" - and since then many hard topics and inconvienient stories where left behind for soft topics and lifestyle articles.

I really enjoyed reading it but right now I won't bother most of the time.

They even changed their, in my opinion hilarious, but sarcastic album reviews to album reviews which sound like a rehash of the PR text from the record company.

The most important thing is the picture of the lead journalists at the end of the story and how they "connect to this story". And the guy who writes 3 pages about his cooking. And the boring "I am so edgy and showing two sides of my personality" PR interview with a celebrity. Yesterday I've read one of these interviews with the question "do you enjoy wearing suits?"

To be fair, sometimes they still have well made articles, but many times it is just boring feel-good-journalism.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by forapurpose on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:19PM (#15683108)
The same thought crossed my mind the other day, but thinking through it I remembered, for print journalism: the Financial Times (which I think has a claim on 'best journalism in English'), The Guardian, and The Economist. In the U.S. a country ~4 times the size, there is only the New York Times and the Washington Post on that level (IMHO; there's also Time, Bloomberg, and others; and we're omitting Reuters, the AP, and many more in other categories).

I think the situation in the UK is similar to the US for print journalism (whatever that means these days), with a few large blocks:

* A few top-notch publications

* Far right propaganda, substantially from Murdoch / News Corp.

* A bunch of middling, substantially ineffectual stuff

(I know these are broad generalizations, with many exceptions.)

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by branchless on Sunday November 12, 2017 @10:08PM (#15683959)
The Economist is terrible. It's just the same neo-liberal slant on everything. Read one article of theirs and you are done.

FT is really weak. Go check out the FT comments some time - none of their readers understand how markets work nor how prices are set. You know why? Because they read the FT and the FT never talks about any of this. All they have is what appears to be in depth but is simply parroting numbers.

Guardian I have more time for but they are frustrating. They tell the truth right up to the point where it comes to talking about the banks and how land is used to extract labour, then they melt away. Which in the UK is everything.

UK journalism has fallen so far. Telegraph for example you could label propaganda - it's right wing. But it's so trashy now. And this is mirrored across all publications.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by AnonymousPlanet on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:17AM (#15685462)
One big difference between The Economist and German papers like the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) is: The Economist is capable of admitting that it was wrong in the past. The financial news section of the FAZ, on the other hand, will deride anyone who does not agree with them ideologically, and then, when it turns out they had been wrong from the get go, pretend they were on the other side of the argument.

I have the feeling journalists in Germany still think there is something like completely objective reporting. A kind of gold standard you achieve by adhering to a certain method, with everyone coming to the one and only correct conclusion. Anyone who does not must be inept or not a real journalist in the first place.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by creaghpatr on Monday November 13, 2017 @01:03PM (#15688454)
>The Economist is capable of admitting that it was wrong in the past.

Just like every economist in the history of economics

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by FabHK on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:30AM (#15684869)
> The Economist is terrible. It's just the same neo-liberal slant on everything

That's a really common prejudice, and not born out by the actual paper, in my view. As just one example, in the US presidential elections, The Economist has endorsed G W Bush, but then Kerry, Obama, Obama, and Clinton.

It's still the best newspaper around, in my view, for concise, opinionated updates on a wide range of global issues.

FT is better than WSJ, but that's not saying much.

Guardian has some good reporting, and is worth supporting, though I disagree with some of their editorialising.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by cmyr on Sunday November 12, 2017 @09:11PM (#15683758)
US also has the New Yorker, the Atlantic, Harpers, and a few other very good monthlies.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by branchless on Sunday November 12, 2017 @10:09PM (#15683964)
I read an article in the New Yorker recently about a guy chasing info on squid, just excellent. So well written.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by kenver on Sunday November 12, 2017 @05:07PM (#15682886)
Unfortunately they do mix paid content in. I built it in to one of their apps after much complaining about what it was going to do to the user experience, but they have to pay for the publication somehow.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by chrisper on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:30PM (#15682720)
What about the BBC? Are they bad now as well?
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by branchless on Sunday November 12, 2017 @10:04PM (#15683944)
The BBC is a total shadow of its former self. Radio included. 9 o'clock news is like it's for kids.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by petre on Sunday November 12, 2017 @05:13PM (#15682907)
The BBC is pretty much okay with accurate reporting.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Certhas on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:20AM (#15685291)
Yes, but they let the newspapers set the agenda.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by readittwice on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:12AM (#15685031)
Interesting to read that, after what role german media/newspapers played in 2015. Especially since even journalists of well-respected german newspapers admitted the lack of critical journalism during this time.
Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Certhas on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:19AM (#15685285)
What are you talking about? You speak as if some terrible catastrophe happened in 2015 that has led to untold human suffering in which the media was complicit by turning a blind eye.

Instead what happened was that Germany took in a several hundred thousand refugees and migrants, which was a logistical challenge that was met.

The cultural and integration challenge was initially under discussed but hardly relevant to the immediate humanitarian issue.

Crucially though, that under discussion was quickly self corrected. The big center left media organisations have clearly talked about these issues. And not years after the fact but pretty quickly.

The idea that somehow collectively the left, the German media or some other institutions have turned a blind eye towards the challenges implied is a complete myth.

For example, in the biggest left weekly newspaper, Die Zeit, pretty much immediately after the cologne harassment events in January 2016, the headline article on sexist Arab culture.

http://www.zeit.de/2016/03/sexismus-fluechtlinge-islamismus-...

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by readittwice on Monday November 13, 2017 @06:52AM (#15685822)
Your article is from 2016, while I was walking about 2015. This is pretty important since the events from sylvester 2015 were an important changing point. But please let's do not discuss single articles, it is more about the general sentiment the media wanted to convey. E.g. the infamous "Dunkeldeutschland".

Since you mention the left Die Zeit: it's chief editor criticized the media for its news coverage during that time: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/bilanz-der-beri.... There have also been studies about the role of the media in 2015: http://www.zeit.de/2017/30/fluechtlinge-medien-berichterstat.... Photographers complained about the selection of their pictures in 2015: http://derstandard.at/2000066973507/Politikerfotos-Propagand....

It's fine to disagree with me, but calling my critique a "complete myth" is quite unfair.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by Certhas on Monday November 13, 2017 @07:28AM (#15685976)
But it's crucial. It shows that if there was an initial overreaction along the lines you claim, it was corrected rather quickly from within the media landscape. I would say that it took a while for the media to figure out how to talk about the challenges without giving any credence to xenophobia.

That shows a fundamentally healthy media landscape to me. After all you are able to cite two absolute mainstream papers, one conservative, one centre left to argue for your critique.

And while that critique is valid, I still wonder what exactly you are talking about. It's not like something utterly terrible happened in 2015.

The FAZ article explicitly also mentioned that there was a real worry about right wing violence and extremism in the wake of the refugees arrival. That's not media propaganda. Refugees have been overwhelmingly the victims, not the perpetrators of violence.

If you remember, that is what Dunkeldeutschland in Gaucks speech explicitly referred to: Violence against refugees. If you look at 2015, and the media reaction, without the context of Solingen and NSU, you are missing the context of the debate.

This could have been way worse. And my guess is that if Germany had a strong Fox News or Daily Mail it probably would have been.

Re:Süddeutsche Zeitung Became the Go-To Place for Leaks Like... by softwarelimits on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:40AM (#15684909)
A good place to learn german and about german media & german humor: https://www.zdf.de/comedy/heute-show

:)