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Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by StavrosK on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @09:20PM (#15659244)
You have to show national ID, a proof of residence and have your tax number ready.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by harryh on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @09:23PM (#15659260)
But the tax number isn't secret right? So that doesn't do much?

What is proof of residence? A copy of your apartment lease or something like that?

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by StavrosK on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @09:34PM (#15659319)
Yes, the tax number isn't secret, it's just to prove that you know it and so they can correlate your tax situation, I think. The biggest proof is the identity document, which is not trivial to forge.

Proof of residence is a copy of your lease, or a bill by a power or phone company, basically a piece of formal correspondence with your address on it, so you can sort of prove you live where you say.

The bank photocopies all this, so if you forge an ID card to include your photo, they store the photo too, and if you get caught you're in deep trouble, as forgery is a serious crime. I think that's actually what prevents most identity theft here.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by espadrine on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:55AM (#15660209)
In France, the institutions emitting the proofs of residence add a 2D-Doc, a flashcode printed on the document that includes the key information, signed with the institution's private key.

https://ants.gouv.fr/Les-solutions/2D-Doc

Translated: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by harryh on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @09:46PM (#15659397)
Ya, so I think the big difference between Europe and the US is that you can open a lot of accounts online in the US so there is no opportunity to examine and copy a physical ID card. I can definitely see how that would raise the difficult of pretending to be someone else.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by kuschku on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:42AM (#15660157)
I just opened a bank account in Germany via an app.

I had a choice between either using my eID for verification, or doing a video call and showing the ID into the camera (in a way that their systems can automatically verify the security measures).

It took 20 minutes to go from nothing to having an account, and being able to move money to ans from it.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by kaybe on Thursday November 09, 2017 @10:53AM (#15663388)
Plus there is an option where you either go to the local post office or the postman comes and verifies your ID.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by EADGBE on Thursday November 09, 2017 @10:01AM (#15662913)
Proof of residence makes it seem like it's not automated. Is the credit card approval process not automated there?
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by StavrosK on Thursday November 09, 2017 @10:08AM (#15662986)
I'm not sure, I've never wanted a credit card. Why would you want automated credit card issuance?
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by EADGBE on Monday November 13, 2017 @09:27AM (#15686705)
Well, you've never wanted a credit card.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @09:51PM (#15659424)
>The biggest proof is the identity document, which is not trivial to forge.

But it's usually trivial to purchase a forgery.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by PeterisP on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:52AM (#15660657)
No, not really. I've read that in USA it's somewhat common for people to possess fake IDs e.g. for students for age-verification purposes; but in EU forged IDs are serious business - it's really hard to make a somewhat passable forgery, it's harder than counterfeiting currency, so unless you've got contacts with organized crime (e.g. your local drug dealer doesn't have such access) you're not going to find anyone willing to make you such an ID, and if you do, it's likely a police sting operation. Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it (fraud charges would be extra), there's not much demand among "normal people" for it (unlike e.g. drugs), so there's not a flowing market that would make such a purchase trivial.

Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands, so it's not worth it for mass scamming. Also, you'd have to show up in person and risk immediate arrest if the forgery gets detected.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by krinchan on Thursday November 09, 2017 @11:32AM (#15663732)
> e.g. for students for age-verification purposes

What I'm hearing is our idiotic age limit on drinking makes ID forgery lucrative enough to outweigh the risks. Therefore: The drinking age in the USA is largely responsible for making identity theft easier.

I'm kidding, another major hole in this is a unique nexus of states having different ID/Driving License implementations and the fact that a vast portion of our citizens lack a passport.

Also, I'm not sure where the money is in the current system, but every time the USA tries to create a national ID all sorts of astroturfed nonsense comes out about Big Brother and COMMNUNISM!!

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:25AM (#15661013)
> it's really hard to make a somewhat passable forgery

It's not, I've held several. For EU countries.

>unless you've got contacts with organized crime

Or an internet connection!

>Getting a fake ID gives limited benefits and means jailtime even if you don't attempt to use it

My personal experience has been very different. But I guess this'll vary from country to country.

>there's not much demand among "normal people" for it

How many undocumented migrants are there in Europe again? Are those people not "normal"?

>Also, even if you could get one, it's going to cost thousands

Nonsense, hundreds.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by dagw on Thursday November 09, 2017 @06:52AM (#15661638)
It's not, I've held several. For EU countries.

As in an actual national ID that can be used to open bank accounts and cross borders, or some other sort of non-official ID that might be good enough to get you into bars?

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Thursday November 09, 2017 @07:54AM (#15661947)
Open bank accounts and cross borders kind.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by dfox on Thursday November 09, 2017 @03:11PM (#15665479)
I suspect that what you have seen were all forgeries of temporary non-machine-readable IDs, ie. ID-2 format laminated cardstock, instead of ID-1 (credit card size) plastic (smart) card, which are good enough to cross land borders, for getting beer at bar or for cursory inspection by police, Such IDs are usually insufficient to open bank account (and generally rejected by anyone who cares, including many parts of government) or air travel.

Edit: or given the thread context you mean forgeries of the same level as US driver licenses for under age drinking, which is quite possible, but such forgery is readily distinguishable by anyone who has actually seen real EU ID card.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Thursday November 09, 2017 @03:29PM (#15665623)
>ID-1 (credit card size) plastic (smart) card

These.

>ID-2 format laminated cardstock

Not these, I've seen a plenty of US ones like this.

I am talking about forgeries specifically sold for the purpose of opening bank accounts.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by chki on Thursday November 09, 2017 @06:48AM (#15661621)
You're seriously admitting to holding various forged ID cards in several EU countries? To me that is similar to someone just casually noticing that they have made counterfeit money or stolen a wallet – seriously criminal.

And I'm also heavily doubting that an internet connection is enough to get a forged ID card. It does elude me how one would do that without some sort of special machines.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Thursday November 09, 2017 @07:55AM (#15661952)
There are tons of online sellers... ID cards and passports are far easier to ship than drugs.

Even the reddit fakeid community seems to have some pretty good EU ids.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by throwanem on Thursday November 09, 2017 @07:56AM (#15661962)
You use the Internet connection to find and do business with people who have the special machines, would be my guess.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by silversmith on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:37AM (#15660137)
If someone is targeting you and especially you, I assume it wouldn't be super complicated.

However, purchasing a thousand SSNs and automating signups sounds hell of a lot easier than purchasing a thousand passports and physically visiting the bank offices.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by wmf on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:21AM (#15660080)
Still, requiring criminals to buy forged IDs is much more friction than not even asking for ID, as happens in the US.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by kuschku on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:43AM (#15660162)
If you have a way to circumvent the electronic signing solution used by most European eIDs, then nothing stops you anyway.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:26AM (#15661019)
Nobody would ever question a broken chip. I don't think they even read them in most places, perhaps Estonia? (before the Infineon thing anyway)
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by Luc on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:55AM (#15661149)
Banks, police, city administration, doctors, pharmacies, insurance - those are the reasons I've pulled out my ID card in the past 10 years, and every single time it was to read the chip, with barely a passing glance given to the card itself.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by ryanlol on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:57AM (#15661160)
I suppose you'd just use a passport instead then? Or do they actually verify those too?
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by kuschku on Thursday November 09, 2017 @07:27AM (#15661815)
If you use a passport, it'll take a lot longer to verify.

For example, banks will photocopy your passport and verify the signature on it to ensure that it's correct.

(Basically, there's an algorithm used to compute a 30 digit hash on the ID or passport, which is computed from the IDs content and a secret seed. Anyone can verify this hash easily with open algorithms and tools, but only the government can create them).

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by cr1895 on Thursday November 09, 2017 @06:18AM (#15661496)
>What is proof of residence?

At least within the Netherlands, your residence is officially registered with the municipality. This is tied in with your Citizen Service Number (BSN). Without this, you cannot open a bank account.

Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by vorotato on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:14PM (#15665013)
and I bet you can't get a residence without a bank account huh.
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by godzilla82 on Thursday November 09, 2017 @03:09AM (#15660713)
Don't the credit card companies do a credit check or is your tax information sufficient to know your credit worthiness? If a credit check is done, do you know which identifier the credit rating agencies use?
Re:Senators push to ditch social security numbers in light o... by Joeri on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:01AM (#15660901)
Every country is different, but here’s the belgian system:

There is a national ID number, equivalent to SSN, which is printed on the ID, and to which the credit history is linked. It is used for distinguishing identity, but not for authentication. For authentication you need the physical ID and sometimes the pin code. The ID card carries a digital certificate which makes them hard to forge (I’ve never heard of outright forgery), and allows for online identity (like filing taxes or opening a bank account online). Obtaining a new ID requires either presenting the old one, or visiting the police to have your identity verified in other ways.