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Re:Chrome breaks the Web by KeitIG on Monday November 06, 2017 @11:55AM (#15636781)
Talking from the developer point of view here, not the user's: I'm expecting things to be working the same way they are documented in the manual.

The changes some browsers have made to autoplay videos or alerts do not contradict what is in the manual.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by pas on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:30PM (#15638749)
With evergreen browsers, that basically requires a dev team to adjust the code and release/deploy a new version every X months.

WHICH IS OKAY, if we're talking about security/privacy, but performance ... not really. Let the market (and the users) decide. If a site takes forever to load, and scrolling is impossible because it takes ages to scroll, and burns a mark in your palm in that time, then maybe you'll reconsider visiting that site ever again.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by Silhouette on Monday November 06, 2017 @05:25PM (#15639543)
With evergreen browsers, that basically requires a dev team to adjust the code and release/deploy a new version every X months.

WHICH IS OKAY, if we're talking about security/privacy, but performance ... not really.

It's not automatically OK to break functionality even for security/privacy reasons, IMHO. Browsers are used for many useful purposes that do not involve visiting sites run by large organisations with full-time development teams assigned to ongoing maintenance. Intranets. Embedded UIs in devices. Personal sites full of useful information but with no-one actively maintaining them.

The number of breaking changes browser developers have been willing to make in recent years does not bode well for the future of the Web, a platform which became what it is today precisely because it was a known target for developers and for a few years the industry standards actually meant something.

The Brave New Web is one dominated by ego-stroking contests between the major browser developers and huge, centralised sites with effectively unlimited resources run by just a handful of organisations. Notice that neither users nor original content creators appear in that previous description. The original author here is quite right to call the big players out for that. We saw Microsoft's infamous embrace-and-extend strategy and the way the Web was held back for years as a result. We should be just as wary when the likes of Google sing the same song.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by pas on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @06:17AM (#15651324)
Static sites without maintenance are not a problem, they remained readable all these years, and I guess they'll continue to be so. (ACID test and all.)

And there are non evergreen browsers for those environments.

I agree that unilateral moves are bad for the web, but the reality was always that. Vendors have their own agendas, and usually the overlap is large enough.

Plus the change was always there too. Framesets work just as 'fine' today as they did back in '96, and the same goes for tables, divs, and falling snowflakes in the background DHTML snippets. The churn we see today is because the web became a lot more diverse, a lot of things were and are still live on the edge, some are in terms of performance and creative expression (just think about CSS Houdini, giving even lower level access gradually to the rendering pipeline), some in terms of security (because they depend on some implementation detail of browsers - such as CSRF protections, that took a decade to get sort of right with the Same Origin policy).

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by wereHamster on Monday November 06, 2017 @12:10PM (#15636900)
What manual are you referring to? HTML5? That's a living standard, it evolves daily.
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by edoceo on Monday November 06, 2017 @12:18PM (#15636965)
Dude, autocomplete=off should just work. Chrome does the WRONG THING. Spec says what to do, living spec says what to do - Chrome does whatever they want. It's BS. It breaks the web.

Then chrome Devs say to use autocomplete=something-stupid to get the specification behaviour of 'off' WTF is that?!

Donate to Firefox.

Chrome is the new IE

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by labster on Monday November 06, 2017 @01:12PM (#15637430)
Or you know, just use Firefox. The only problem right now being that you need to install Dev Edition to get a decent experience (i.e. version 57).
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by wtetzner on Monday November 06, 2017 @02:40PM (#15638355)
Not for much longer, I think Firefox 57 is schedule for release on November 14th.
[dead]
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by daanlo on Monday November 06, 2017 @01:49PM (#15637780)
A website is owned by someone. If they decide that in their shop they want to have a carpet floor it is up to users not to visit that shop (if they don't like that), but not up to adidas to turn the floor into tarmac, because that works better for their shoes...
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by JoshTriplett on Monday November 06, 2017 @02:16PM (#15638103)
If the website says to display ads, my browser will properly ignore that. If the website says to prevent the user from switching away from the tab, my browser will properly ignore hat. If the website tries to take over my system and install malware, my browser will properly ignore that. And if the browser tries to break the ability to remember passwords, my browser will properly ignore that too.

Websites consist of code to be interpreted by browsers as they see fit, for the benefit of their users. Those users do not necessarily want exactly the experience the site authors want them to have.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by alexssung on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:02PM (#15638555)
The difference between autocomplete=off and the rest of your examples is that there are actually positive UX use cases for disabling autocomplete on certain inputs (e.g. when you are an admin editing existing users)
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by JoshTriplett on Monday November 06, 2017 @06:28PM (#15639904)
Ad blockers have false positives as well. And there's a use case for blocking the user from closing the tab (onbeforeunload), such as prompting them to save/submit what they're working on. But for all of those, the browser is still in control and the question is what provides the most benefit for the user.

So, along the same lines, it may make sense to improve the UI for autocompleting users, or for hinting about the use of the field, to make it easier for sysadmins. But that shouldn't break the more common case of handling sites that just think they're Too Special or Too Important to allow saving login information.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by alexssung on Monday November 06, 2017 @09:53PM (#15640738)
Ad blockers are extensions to browsers.

And I would actually argue that blocking before closing the tab should be a decision up to the developer, not the browser.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by marssaxman on Monday November 06, 2017 @02:19PM (#15638134)
My computer is owned by me. If I download your HTML, I get to do whatever I want with it, using any software I please. I am under no obligation to render it or process it in the particular way you would most prefer. You can suggest that I might want to render your website with carpet on the floor, but if I object to carpet and choose to render all websites with tile floors instead, that's my choice - because it's my computer, and I get to decide what I'm going to do with it. If you don't like that, don't let me download your HTML.
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by michaelmrose on Monday November 06, 2017 @02:25PM (#15638203)
The browser vendor CAN'T install tarmac in shops floor.

The shop controls the server the user rightly controls the experience on their machine. The browser vendor provides an application that runs on the users machine. If the shop doesn't like it they can pound sand or suggest the user would be better off with a different browser.

They can perhaps rightly say that the deviation from standard is unfriendly or sub optimal but one would hope they wouldn't appeal to imaginary authority derived from a bad analogy.

A raven isn't like a writing desk and a client server interaction isn't like a user visiting a physical store.

Analogies can serve to communicate but when you use them to prove a point the only thing you prove is your lack of understanding of the matter.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by TheCoelacanth on Monday November 06, 2017 @01:58PM (#15637885)
The browser is owned by the user. If the user wants it to autocomplete a field, then it should autocomplete the field.
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by edoceo on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:01PM (#15638545)
Users don't even know. And if you offer a professional site, with support, you will field calls where chrome autocomplete confused the user and doesn't behave like the spec. The answer is buried in a chrome bug report. Stupid
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by pathseeker on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:08PM (#15638610)
autocomplete is completely behavior inside the user's browser. You do not own the user's browser. Would you also like to block zooming or other accessibility features because you don't like the way it looks?
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by myko on Monday November 06, 2017 @02:56PM (#15638495)
I think I agree with you - autocomplete=off more often than not just makes me angry. It's honestly a big reason why I prefer Chrome, it tends to do the right thing here.

I didn't realize until now that it doing the right thing from my (the user's) perspective was because it was breaking a web standard, but damn if I don't find it useful.

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by KeitIG on Monday November 06, 2017 @12:19PM (#15636976)
MDN? [1] If you want something more official, here is the W3C doc [2]

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/Fo...

[2] https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Elements/input/text

Re:Chrome breaks the Web by krainboltgreene on Monday November 06, 2017 @12:18PM (#15636964)
WHATWG is a living standard, HTML5 is not.
Re:Chrome breaks the Web by Silhouette on Monday November 06, 2017 @05:28PM (#15639556)
A living standard, in the sense meant here, is a contradiction. The entire point of industry standards is to create a stable foundation that everyone can rely on so they can build on top in a compatible way.