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Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by tudorconstantin on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:21AM (#15610610)
Bitcoin's value is given by the trust people put in it. Just like with the fiat currencies as a matter of fact, because I don't know of any of them to be backed by anything else than trust.

Of course, the US dollar has the whole US economy and the biggest army in the world as its plus, but it also has its minuses: the US treasury can and does print as many as it wants, in the detriment of ALL USD holders.

Bitcoin's pluses when comparing it to other crypto currencies are:

- the first to market advantage

- almost 9 years of virtually 0 hacks of the protocol or concept

- no sudden moves

- the whole ecosystem that formed around it

- etc.

Let's not forget - ETH is less than 3 years old, Ripple is centralized, Litecoin, zCash, Monero and most of the others are bitcoin forks.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by slg on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:00AM (#15610984)
>Bitcoin's value is given by the trust people put in it. Just like with the fiat currencies as a matter of fact

Except fiat currencies also have that fiat behind them that gives them value. If you want to do business with the US government, you do it in USD. If you are one of the millions employed by the US government, you are paid in USD. If you manipulate USD, you have to answer to the US government. Those things add tremendous value and they are something that Bitcoin does not have.

With Bitcoin you only have trust in value of Bitcoin. Fiat currency is given added value by having trust in the power, reach, and stability of the nation that issued it.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by mcv on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:21AM (#15611209)
> With Bitcoin you only have trust in value of Bitcoin.

More specifically, you have trust in the continued trust that others have in it. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy: as long as people continue to trust it, it continues to be valuable, but as soon as people start to doubt that others will continue to trust it, it's instantly worthless. There's no real value backing it up. This makes it very vulnerable to hype and hysteria.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by cloudhead on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:09PM (#15611648)
What currency doesn't operate this way?
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by indubitable on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:14PM (#15612263)
The USD, in effect, does not. It's a reason I'm somewhat bearish on it.

In the 70s we made a number of agreements with a variety of Mideastern nations. We gave them what seemed like the world and asked that simply require payments of oil to be transacted on the dollar, and that they invest their excess revenues into US securities. In fewer words, the petro dollar.

And those agreements, for the most part, persist to this very day. A US dollar guarantees you access to oil. And so long as oil is the most in demand commodity in the world, the US dollar will remain the most in demand currency in the world - guaranteeing access to the goods and services of any country.

This is why the US dollar is the world reserve currency, or the money most countries keep under their bed in case of a rainy day. However, if this changes (renewables, Saudi Arabia deciding to switch allegiance to Russia/China, etc) what happens? We've a lot of debt that's only increasing and it's unclear to me how tall the USD would stand without its crutch.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by cloudhead on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:44AM (#15618090)
Interesting, thanks.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by mcv on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:57PM (#15623253)
Every currency that's backed by an actual government. Whatever else happens, you can always pay your taxes with it. It is the currency of the economy the currency is native to. As long as that economy is running, you can use that currency to purchase goods in that economy, and the currency has value. People doubting whether enough people will start using it in the future is irrelevant, because enough people are already using it in the present. A country will have to work really hard to sabotage its currency, and that's extremely rare (though it has happened in Zimbabwe and Weimar Germany).

Bitcoin, by comparison, isn't used for everyday transactions by a lot of people (though there are some). There's no real economy it's native to (unless you count Silk-Road-style markets), and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to use it there in the future.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by IncRnd on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:25PM (#15611826)
Some currencies are pegged to other currencies or values.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by Infernal on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:06PM (#15612208)
So you have to have trust that others will have continued trust in the currencies or values that your example currency is pegged to.

Ultimately it seems that any material you treat as a store of value, rather than as a commodity or material that is valuable to you for its own properties, includes this trust that others will value it. If others do not value it, it is not a store of value, its usefulness to you is reduced to its own intrinsic properties rather than the value others place on it.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by tudorconstantin on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:11AM (#15611096)
It might not be just the trust in value. BTC started at less than 1$ in value. The trust built over the last almost 9 years.

It might be trust that you can't double spend BTCs, trust in the issuing algorithm, trust that you can only lose your bitcoins if you do something stupid with your wallet, etc.

Of course, we can't compare right now bitcoin's ecosystem with the ecosystem of the fiat currency, but who knows what will happen in the future if more and more people and businesses choose to adopt it.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by baddox on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:03PM (#15612172)
I think that’s what is meant by “trust in value.” The “real” value of Bitcoin is as a trustworthy ledger.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by indubitable on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:53PM (#15612078)
The nation backing of fiat also is its downfall. Look at our monetary base [1] for an example. The US adjusted monetary base in in 1984 was about $183 billion. In the 24 years to 2008 it increased at a roughly linear rate to $874 billion. Just from 2008 to 2015 it increased to more than $4 trillion.

The Fed themselves wrote an article [2] expressing some concern about the "nontraditional monetary policy" that instigated this sharp change in the monetary base. In their closing words, "Recent increases in the monetary base are far greater than any previously in American history (even adjusted for the size of the economy), surely a "noble experiment" in policymaking. Will these policies be successful without accelerating inflation? The epitaph to this curious case of monetary base expansion is yet to be written."

And really I think that final line quite succinctly sums up the state of modern economics. We've entered into an age of currency growing, inflation chasing, debt drive economics. And it's been working great for the briefest glimpse of time that we've been carrying out this experiment. Does that mean we've finally 'solved' economics, or does an epitaph that looks back somewhat less fondly on our decisions await? I don't know, but I do think the inherent stability of the fundamentals of bitcoin (e.g. - everything except the exchange rate) and the lack of trust it requires makes it a nice balance to our fiat experiments.

[1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BASE

[2] - https://www.stlouisfed.org/Publications/Regional-Economist/J...

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by _Tev on Saturday November 04, 2017 @05:40AM (#15624362)
It's funny how monetary base expansions are STILL used as arguments against fiat money. People like you were predicting doom because of it since 2010. Nothing happened. Except economies recovering, which was the design goal. The FED will also start to reduce its expansion soon, and catastrophe is still not anywhere to be seen. You were simply wrong, get over it.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by baddox on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:02PM (#15612161)
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to attribute much of USD’s value to business deals with the US government. That must be a tiny effect. I’d say most of the value comes from the fact that US workers have to pay taxes in USD even if they earned income in some other currency or asset.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by phamilton on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:11PM (#15612242)
> pay taxes in USD

basically, citizens dealing with the US government. I think it's the same category.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by baddox on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:24AM (#15617766)
If you define that so broadly, then sure. I got the impression that sgl was referring to directly doing deals with the US government where the US government pays in USD, which I suspect is a much less significant phenomenon.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by lr4444lr on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:18PM (#15612301)
No, not "dealing" with the US government: actually compelled by force of law to render a portion of your assets. I don't mean this to sound as ominous as it does, but rather as stabilizing a force as Bitcoin can never be.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by branchless on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:03PM (#15616395)
> pay taxes in USD

bingo

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by SilasX on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:10PM (#15612762)
>If you want to do business with the US government, you do it in USD.

If you want to do business with drug vendors over the internet, you do it in BTC.

(Altnerately: If you want to donate to Wikileaks...)

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by LyndsySimon on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:45AM (#15610834)
> Litecoin, zCash, Monero and most of the others are bitcoin forks.

Nope. All of these are derivatives of Bitcoin, but none of them are forks. A fork, by definition, shares a genesis block with the parent currency. This is in contrast to a "client fork", where the Bitcoin codebase was modified to create a new blockchain with or without changes in protocol.

Most forks of Bitcoin have been intentional, and the "lesser" chain has died on purpose. Off the top of my head, existing forks are:

BitcoinXT: created in late 2014, it allowed 8MB blocks instead of the 1MB limit for Bitcoin. As of mid-2016, it died due to lack of miner support.

Bitcoin Classic: created in early 2016, it allowed 2MB blocks. It was effectively dead as of early 2017.

Bitcoin Cash (a/k/a BCash, BCH): created in August 2017. It eschewed SegWit, and increased block size to 8MB. It's not dead yet and seems to have a base level of support both in terms of miners and in terms of price. I expect that it will die eventually... but who knows. It is by far the best-supported Bitcoin fork, and there are many who believe that it's the "real Bitcoin" in the sense that it conforms more closely to the original whitepaper.

There are a couple of other forks planned in the near future as well.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by eigenvalue on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:57AM (#15610965)
I believe the parent poster meant fork in the sense of forking the codebase, not a currency fork. And in the case of Litecoin at least, that is true.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by john_alan on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:14PM (#15611706)
Monero is a novel codebase. Not a fork of Bitcoin
[dead]
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by sctb on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:56PM (#15615110)
Wow, please don't post like this ever again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by icahnvalyou on Thursday November 09, 2017 @01:15PM (#15664512)
I'm a little confused about which guideline I broke. Is it the all caps "you"?

edit: is this account a bot that I triggered?

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by onion2k on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:50AM (#15610888)
Bitcoin's value is given by the trust people put in it.

Currency speculators don't give a damn about trust. They're not in it for the long term value that derives from the usefulness of Bitcoin, and that's the only thing you need trust for. They'll cash out when the price gets to a point where they're happy with their return. At that point either new speculators will get on board and keep the price high or the price will fall back to real value of Bitcoin.

Neither really changes the usefulness of Bitcoin or it's long term value as a currency.

Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by dumbfounder on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:58AM (#15611543)
They increase the volatility which decreases its value as a currency. If prices are volatile it makes it hard to price items tied to Bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by IncRnd on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:28PM (#15611871)
Even if Bitcoin's price were stable, it would still be difficult to tie items to Bitcoin when it takes at least an hour per transaction.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by figgis on Saturday November 04, 2017 @05:16PM (#15626934)
Most of my recent bitcoin transactions were all confirmed multiple times within 15 minutes?
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by lr4444lr on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:16PM (#15612283)
And let's not understate the value of the dollar that goes beyond economic fluctuations and military might: it's legal tender for paying your taxes if you're a US citizen. That's not to say I suggest investing in treasuries, but strictly as a comparison with Bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by mywittyname on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:43PM (#15612505)
Yup, if you work or do business in the US, then you need USD. No trust necessary.
Re:Bitcoin Surges Past $7,000 to Extend Record Rally by branchless on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:02PM (#15616390)
No this isn't correct. The government imbues value in their fiat currency by insisting you pay your taxes in it. You may think bitcoin is the best thing ever for many reasons. But if you live in the USA you gotta get USD to pay your taxes or they are going to put you in jail.

We see this globally with the huge effort the USA puts into keeping oil priced / settled in USD. It matters.

USD has a store of value because if I hold USD I know the US govt is going to make people hand over a portion of their labour in taxes which keeps USD demand up.