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Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by halflings on Sunday October 29, 2017 @09:31PM (#15582561)
I think these type of discussions are really detached from the reality of what neural networks, AI or evolutionary algorithms are.

These are mathematical models that optimise a specific fitness function, they borrow some biological concepts but they are not going to "evolve into ant-level intelligence".

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by smallnamespace on Sunday October 29, 2017 @10:11PM (#15582695)
> they are not going to "evolve into ant-level intelligence"

How do we know until we've tried it?

I mean, at a certain level of abstraction, you can just view humans as a bunch of atoms that have been placed in a heat bath for a very long time. And yet intelligence seems to have spontaneously self-organized from it.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by halflings on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:18AM (#15583054)
Again, this is very detached from what ANNs or genetic algorithms are: relatively simple methods to optimise fitness (or "cost") functions.

They are nowhere close to the complexity of a brain, and certainly do not have enough capacity to be a realistic simulation of the universe.

> How do we know until we've tried it? Tried what, is the question? What's an ant-level intelligence? We have algorithms that can detect images/speech at super-human level (at least in some conditions). Worthy questions, but unrelated to these algorithms.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by Turing_Machine on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:28AM (#15583090)
I'm not sure that ants are doing a "realistic simulation of the universe", though, or anything like it. From what I understand, they're a lot closer to little robots than they are to something that can do Kip Thorne-level astrophysics, or Thomas Aquinas-level philosophy.

I am thinking, in particular, of an experiment done by Richard Feynman where he got ants walking across small sheets of glass. After shuffling the sheets around so the chemical trail became a loop, he was able to get the ants tirelessly marching around in a circle (which they would presumably do until they dropped).

Heck, you probably don't even need an ANN at all to do that, much less an evolutionary one.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by goatlover on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:19AM (#15583060)
You could view it that way, but it won't do you much good, since biology is a long ways from physics, and humans didn't spontaneously emerge from a long standing heat bath.
Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by Turing_Machine on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:30AM (#15583096)
"humans didn't spontaneously emerge from a long standing heat bath."

They didn't? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you arguing intelligent design or something? Because the standard evolutionary theories postulate that humans did, in fact, spontaneously arise from a heat bath (the heat coming from the Sun).

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by goatlover on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:39AM (#15583131)
If by "spontaneous", you mean a process taking several billion years which included heat from the sun, but also resources on Earth, with billions of previous ancestral forms from simple replicators to complex multicellular organisms, then okay.

That's not what I typically think of when I hear the word "spontaneous". Spontaneous emergence sounds to me like lightning hitting a swamp over a period of time, and then by a pure chance arrangement of molecules, a fully formed swamp man comes out of it.

That's way different than an evolutionary process.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by smallnamespace on Monday October 30, 2017 @01:39AM (#15583289)
But that's what the discussion is about here:

> Do you think creating a 3D universe (like that being worked on by open.ai), putting the evolvable agents in it and trying to make them evolve learning and intelligence is a good idea

Basically simulating a universe, seeded with some things we think are already somewhere along the road to intelligence, then seeing if progress is made just by simulating for a long time.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by goatlover on Monday October 30, 2017 @11:47AM (#15585883)
Why am I getting downvoted for this? Evolution isn't spontaneous generation. Evolution disproved any notions of spontaneous generation a century or more ago. All life on Earth evolved via a causal process, not random arrangement of atoms.
Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by canjobear on Sunday October 29, 2017 @10:45PM (#15582797)
Given a fitness function that is the same as an ant's, it seems plausible that they would.

The question is, what is that function?

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by halflings on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:21AM (#15583067)
> Given a fitness function that is the same as an ant's, it seems plausible that they would. > The question is, what is that function?

Not necessarily. Everything points to the fact that the humain brain (at least, I don't know much about ants) does not work in any way similar to neural networks, and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms.

For example, real neurons have no supervision signal. Memory is also a big issue (see the work being done by DeepMind and FAIR on differentiable neural computers, and memory networks) and Reinforcement Learning still struggles with long-term planing, switching strategies, etc.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by catamorphismic on Monday October 30, 2017 @05:38AM (#15583884)
> Not necessarily. Everything points to the fact that the human brain (at least, I don't know much about ants) does not work in any way similar to neural networks, and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms.

Yes, the brain is most likely not simply modelling one giant ANN, but it's much more plausible that ANN-like components have a role in it.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by canjobear on Monday October 30, 2017 @10:14AM (#15585119)
If there is a space of optimal policies for the ant, then both the ANN and real neural systems will be attracted there. There are certainly a lot of local minima, but it would be surprising to me if ANNs and real neural systems could only find totally disjoint local minima with no similarities.
Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by zardo on Monday October 30, 2017 @01:24PM (#15586953)
>and as such there's no guarantee that you can represent its behaviour by the current algorithms.

Doesn't the universal function approximation theorem provide just such a guarantee? It doesn't guarantee any algorithm will converge on that representation, but the capability to represent it is there.

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by bryananderson on Monday October 30, 2017 @12:02PM (#15586036)
It’s almost certainly not just one function.

An ant’s fitness function is different from its ancestor’s fitness function, which is different from its own ancestor’s fitness function, which is different from...

You don’t get from zero to complexity with a single fitness function.

The question we should ask is: How do we vary the fitness function over time in order to evolve something complex?

I have no idea what the answer is, but...

“If you know the question, you know half.”

-Herb Boyer, geneticist

Re:The quest to evolve neural networks through evolutionary ... by malux85 on Sunday October 29, 2017 @10:52PM (#15582832)
Balanced Homeostasis? Maybe we could just start with that - it might give an organism life, but it would be interesting to see if social emergent behaviors came from a group of agents optimizing homeostasis alone