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Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by srcmap on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:20PM (#15571387)
Personally, I prefer to see Google/Waymo start deport 1-2 thousand self driving cars/minivans in Silicon Valley near Google and FB's headquarters.

The near team (in 1-2 years) goal should be getting 20, 50, 95% of their own employees off the personal cars for the daily commute.

Their parking lot should be empty after 2 years.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by cbhl on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:32PM (#15571501)
Getting tech employees off cars doesn't need self-driving cars. Google is perfectly happy to have shuttle buses, and pay for them, provided that housing is sufficiently dense, and there is a place where the buses can legally pick up and drop off employees.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by barrkel on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:40PM (#15571559)
Probably the biggest problem with using mass transit is latency; having to wait around doing nothing until your transport arrives. It's a constraint on your schedule and adds a certain amount of stress to your day. And if your desired departure or arrival time don't coincide closely with the schedule, you're going to waste a bunch of time even if the transport is quick.

Subways solve this problem by running every couple of minutes. Buses generally don't solve this problem well because traffic and alighting / loading delays cause them to bunch up. But on-demand self-driving cars can solve this problem, as long as there are enough of them close enough.

(It's also the problem Uber solved.)

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by tomkarlo on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:23PM (#15571920)
Having ridden the Google buses for 6 years, I can tell you this generally wasn't a problem. They were almost always on schedule (I'd say 95% with 2-3 minutes of planned departure) and never bunched up. You didn't really have a latency problem, because you knew exactly when you needed to be at the stop, and the bus would be there right on time.

One bus replaces probably 150 car trips a day (assuming it makes ~3 runs, partially full. If you assume similar capacity utilization on cars (3 passengers), it would take ~50 car trips to replace those 3 runs, effectively putting 17 cars on the road for every bus currently in operation.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by bckygldstn on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:06PM (#15571767)
Bay Area buses don't solve this problem but many bus systems do. Compared to an effective bus network, Bay Area buses suffer from:

* Short distance between stops (due to low housing density).

* Traffic due to lack of bus lanes.

* Long time spent at stops due to cash payments and/or single door entry, rather than proof of payment or tap on stations at every door, no cash allowed.

* Inaccurate/nonexistent realtime updates.

A bus every 30 minutes isn't a big deal compared to SF/Bay Area travel times, but only if I can rely on a timetable/GPS to arrive at the stop 2 minutes before departure and be confident with a scheduled arrival 2 minutes before my appointment.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by chrisseaton on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:11PM (#15571810)
> * Short distance between stops (due to low housing density).

Wait, this doesn't make sense. Lower density means shorter distances between stops?

No, lower density should mean longer distances between stops, because you will go for longer distances before another person wants to get on or off.

Higher density would mean shorter distances between stops because there will be more frequently people wanting to get on and off.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by richardknop on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:46PM (#15573160)
Low density means that there are less people per km within walking distance of a bus stop which means you pick up less people. So it’s less efficient in that way. High density means at each stop there is much higher amount of people who live near the stop.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by chrisseaton on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:01PM (#15573227)
How do you think that means shorter distances between stops for lower density? You pick up less people per stop, but it's less also people over a given distance, so it doesn't imply stopping more frequently.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by bckygldstn on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:08PM (#15572595)
Yeah sorry, I mean fewer people per stops.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by timr on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:14PM (#15571841)
"Short distance between stops (due to low housing density)"

If anything, you have it backwards. In most of SF, places with high housing density (e.g. Van Ness) have their stops closer together than places with far lower density (e.g. Geary in the outer Richmond).

I suspect (but do not know for sure) that this is done on the theory that dense neighborhoods require more granular transit access.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by Apocryphon on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:59PM (#15571714)
"having to wait around doing nothing until your transport arrives. It's a constraint on your schedule and adds a certain amount of stress to your day"

Otoh, it replaces the latency and stress of rush hour.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by waqf on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:05PM (#15571757)
I have noticed that waiting around on the subway platform or at the bus stop is way more stressful than sitting on the subway or the bus, even if the subway/bus is just stuck for some incomprehensible reason and showing no sign of progress towards my destination.

This leads me to suspect that the stress of waiting for public transit is largely incidental and could be reduced by better station design, without having to make any (difficult, expensive) improvements to service frequency and reliability.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by Apocryphon on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:13PM (#15571830)
There's definitely a dearth of comfortable bus and subway station seating in the Bay Area.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by barrkel on Friday October 27, 2017 @09:52PM (#15573574)
I ride a motorcycle and filter through traffic. I have zero latency and no stress :)
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by waqf on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:57PM (#15571701)
> Subways solve this problem by running every couple of minutes.

Similarly, in many transport corridors intercity rail runs several times an hour (not so much in the US) and shuttle flights run every hour or two. Which are also sufficient in those contexts, in that it becomes reasonable to show up at the station/airport without checking the timetable.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by darethas on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:49PM (#15571634)
Street cars and trains. I don't know why we ever stopped building them.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by maxerickson on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:20PM (#15571890)
The level of service that can be justified in low population density areas is abysmal and can't compete with relatively inexpensive personal vehicles.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by askvictor on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:02PM (#15572206)
*Inexpensive if you don't factor in the costs of building and maintaining roads.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by stale2002 on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:53PM (#15571663)
> provided that housing is sufficiently dense

LOL! What magical fairly land is this?

Convincing local governments to allow more housing to be built, so as to solve the housing crisis? That's crazy talk!

Building self driving is an easy problem compared to the impossibility of THAT.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by DaiPlusPlus on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:05PM (#15571761)
Many local governments are very happy to build more housing: more housing = more residents = more local tax income.

The problem is everyone else who votes against rezoning.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by DrScump on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:14PM (#15573276)

  more housing = more residents = more local tax income
That's the formula San Jose followed for two generations and is exactly why it's less successful than its neighbors, who pursued industrial development plus "big box" retail (both of which provide a better local tax base). Sunnyvale, Mountain View, etc. used San Jose as a "bedroom community" and instead welcomed a more industrial base.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by stale2002 on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:01PM (#15573223)
Not the ones in the bay area.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by linkregister on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:37PM (#15572038)
This sounds like a nightmare. Employees who would have walked, biked, or bused would now be added to traffic. It sounds way more convenient to be picked up by a company car than to bike, especially if it’s raining.

Google having full parking lots doesn’t harm Mountain View and Sunnyvale traffic as much as extra trips do.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by lhorie on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:02PM (#15571745)
I'd much rather they figure out snow conditions. Driving in a snowstorm is challenging even for experienced human drivers, and I'd feel far safer in a autonomous car that has been shown to handle snow well than one that merely dogfoods with employees in sunny California.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by erikpukinskis on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:31PM (#15571972)
Why? If the cars never leave the Bay Area why would you feel safer knowing they have snow capabilities?

I’d rather they get them working maximally safely in a confined environment than pretend to be universally safe when they’re obviously not.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by lhorie on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:47PM (#15572488)
Because snow conditions are inherently more dangerous and more likely to yield data for the cases we really care about, i.e. accidents and near accidents. Getting commute data in California is likely to just give you a ton of boring repeat data going to and from googleplex and a few locations. As far as I understand, the technology is already good enough to handle that sort of 80% reliability stuff. It's the last 20% - the hard stuff - that needs to be hammered on from now on.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by erikpukinskis on Saturday October 28, 2017 @01:14PM (#15575844)
> snow conditions are ... likely to yield data for the cases we really care about

That’s not intuitive to me. I don’t see why snow conditions would teach us about likely accidents in Pali Alto.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by lhorie on Monday October 30, 2017 @07:40PM (#15589993)
Someone had a good example in this thread, for example, you're more likely going to run into issues with clogged sensors in detroit than you are in palo alto. Another thing that happens way more in snow is automatic torque rebalancing in 4WD systems. Rainy days aren't nearly as common in Palo Alto as snowy days are in Detroit but both share the property of poorer visibility and an increase in pedestrian distraction levels. Etc, etc.

A lot of technology only exists because their original problem set was extreme in nature (e.g. things out of NASA or military research). I think a lot of "easier" problems in autonomous driving could benefit from a breakthrough solution that got discovered in the course of solving a harder problem.

Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by bitmapbrother on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:12PM (#15571825)
Personally, I'd like to see these self driving cars routinely tackle more challenging climates than those that you can suntan in for the majority of the year. The snow covered streets of Detroit should yield some interesting data.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by notyourwork on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:32PM (#15571491)
I feel like this is too short sighted. That will inherently happen if they are able to tackle different terrain in different weather conditions. Google has offices in more than just Silicon Valley.
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by secfirstmd on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:33PM (#15571510)
Yeah, I really want to see them handle the mess of Dublin roads and traffic!
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by wtvanhest on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:32PM (#15571498)
Where would the cars go once they drop people off?
Re:Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars in Snowy Detroit by srcmap on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:47PM (#15572486)
Become Uber car and start make $.

Or charge themselves if it is really idle.