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Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by cmontella on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:52PM (#15570114)
I used to live in the dead center of the city, in the Ashbury Heights neighborhood. It took me literally 1 hour to get to work, down town taking muni (fastest time recorded is 40 minutes without any delays and essentially running the "last mile"). This was the longest commute of my life, and I lived 3 miles from work. It would take me just a little more time to walk there. Biking was faster, but more dangerous -- I got hit once (by another cyclist running a light) and that was it for me.

That, plus people assaulting my wife on the street, plus $3000 rent for a 1 bedroom, and I had it with the city. I loved it, it was a great experience, but I just couldn't take it anymore. Now I work from home in the central valley, where I can afford to rent a 3000 sq. ft. home (not because I'm paid much, but because housing is so cheap), and my commute is 1 minute. I'm much happier out here, yet I find when I tell people from SF where I live, some (not all, most people ask "Where the heck is that?") wrinkle their noses. I say, if you're tired of the city, give it a shot -- you might be happier.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by tomkarlo on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:20PM (#15570377)
That's great, but it seems kind of orthogonal and non-scalable to the problem of the Bay Area housing crisis. Are you proposing that everyone in SF move to places like the Central Valley (driving up price) and start driving around cars (increasing traffic and pollution)? What about folks who don't have the luxury of jobs where they can work remotely?
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by cmontella on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:48PM (#15570634)
> kind of orthogonal and non-scalable to the problem of the Bay Area housing crisis.

The problem can be attacked from two angles. Either ramp up housing development to take care of the population influx, or slow down the population influx to match the rate of housing development. Obviously, the people of the area have a vested interest in keeping the area attractive; but for the rest of us, I think it's important to remember there are other places to live and you can be just as happy or happier elsewhere. I'm someone who could have used that reminder a year ago.

There's a lot of justification that goes into paying $3000 per month to live in a one bedroom apartment. You have to recoup that value elsewhere. A lot of it has to do with the job opportunities available to tech workers. That's undeniable. But some of the other justifications I used were more or less lies I started telling myself about why I had to stay.

> Are you proposing that everyone in SF move to places like the Central Valley (driving up price)

It's already happening, so maybe we should embrace it as a valid option. The town I'm living in has become sort of a telecommuter town, precisely because of rents in SF.

> and start driving around cars (increasing traffic and pollution)?

I actually went about 8 months without a car in SF. I took Uber, bike, and muni as my get around. Between me and my wife, we were spending $700 per month on transportation, so we ended up buying a car to get around -- it was just more convenient. Out in the valley, we actually put fewer miles on it, because it's easier to bike out here, and things are actually closer to us than they were in the city (both in miles and minutes).

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by swendoog on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:34PM (#15571022)
> lies I started telling myself about why I had to stay.

care to elaborate?

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by xapata on Saturday October 28, 2017 @12:39PM (#15575667)
He mentioned how awful the commute was and that he needed a car despite being in the city. For me, enabling a carless lifestyle is an important feature of a city.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by ryguytilidie on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:51PM (#15571135)
"Are you proposing that everyone in SF move to places like the Central Valley (driving up price) and start driving around cars (increasing traffic and pollution)?"

I don't know where you came up with this. The OP implied that by moving away from a heavily populated area and working remotely, he was able to afford more space and shorten his commute. You managed to turn no commute into increased pollution and moving to a less densely populated place as "driving up price"?

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by tomkarlo on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:04PM (#15571250)
He didn't use a car to commute before (I'd hope) given he was in the middle of SF. But now he likely needs one to get to the grocery, take his kids to school, etc even if he's WFH. And he's likely also using more energy at home, too. So yes, more pollution - and if a lot of other people moved there, higher prices too.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by foo101 on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:15PM (#15571849)
Well, if a neighbourhood is good and convenient, it is only natural that more people would like to move there, more energy would be consumed and prices would rise.

Besides this obvious thing, what exactly is your point?

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by tomkarlo on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:41PM (#15572059)
The point is you haven't solved the problem. You've just moved it to a different place. Urban sprawl is pretty well acknowledged to be a bad thing (TM) - it increases pollution, is bad for people's health, bad for the social fabric, etc etc.

Saying "it's crowded here, let's go move somewhere else and make that crowded" is not just kicking the can, it's making the problem worse because often those areas have even less mass transit.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Feniks on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:23PM (#15576396)
The alternative is America getting its act together and change their cities into Singapore/Tokyo/Hong Kong. Good luck waiting for that.

Infrastructure is not something the average citizen seems to give a fig about.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by airstrike on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:11PM (#15572268)
Of course someone from SF would have to call it "orthogonal"...
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by tomkarlo on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:56PM (#15572535)
I'm from New York.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by eip on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:00PM (#15570741)
>What about folks who don't have the luxury of jobs where they can work remotely?

I would bet >50% of the people working in the bay area who say they can't work remote are doing jobs that could very easily be done remote.

Do you work on a computer? You can do that remote.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by tomkarlo on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:13PM (#15571837)
The folks who are having the most trouble living in SF - the ones who don't work in tech - often don't spend all day looking at a computer, and have to be physically present at a specific location to do their work. They're teachers, firefighters, nurses, chefs, mechanics, contractors, etc. Generally the tech crowd is impacted the least by housing prices, because they have higher incomes and more job mobility.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by sushid on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:30PM (#15570986)
It's not that they are unable to do the work remotely, it might be frowned upon or straight up not allowed for some workers.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by gozur88 on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:36PM (#15572025)
Employers are still leery of too much work-from-home. My company allows it, but only one day a week. Even people who are ostensibly working from home full time typically have to show up to the office occasionally for meetings and such, so they can't move too far.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by exolymph on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:32PM (#15571006)
Yeah, but you also need to work for a company that will let you work remote. Or find another job.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by tomjakubowski on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:29PM (#15571475)
edit: I phrased this originally in a way that the community didn’t care for.

Plenty of people work on, and require physical access to, computer systems that can’t practically be made available to remote workers.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by ben_jones on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:14PM (#15571843)
Not talked about: you're married. Having worked from home while being single it has its ups and downs. Sure you can get to the gym more but unless you're a natural extrovert you're going to meet way less people - and you'll be less likely to "find someone" (if thats what you're after) compared to the huge number of single people in the city.

I feel like this is a hidden motivation for many people. Maybe just me.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by chrisseaton on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:10PM (#15572253)
Surely the only difference is you won't meet the people at work, but you probably wouldn't date them anyway would you. You'd still meet people at every other place people meet, which is where people look for dates anyway.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by babesh on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:21PM (#15572669)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_multiplier_effect

https://be.helpful.com/helpful-how-the-math-of-viral-growth-...

Transitive property of dating. You might not date your coworker but you might date their friend... or a bit less likely a friend of their friend. Etc...

Also known in social gaming as virality, a statistic you can measure.

Also applies to knowledge transfer which is a reason to live near a hub.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by kbenson on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:37PM (#15572425)
> Surely the only difference is you won't meet the people at work, but you probably wouldn't date them anyway would you.

Traditionally, work has been a very common place to meet future spouses. I believe the rate has dropped in recent decades, but I would be surprised if it was so low as to be inconsequential, especially when considering something as important as many people view this.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by rovolo on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:10PM (#15572609)
According to 'Searching for a Mate: The Rise of the Internet as a Social Intermediary' (2010) http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0003122412448050 , around 10% of (hetero) couples met at work as of 2010, down from a peak of 20% in 1990. It is the fourth most common method behind friends, bars, and online.

Just the graph: https://cdn.technologyreview.com/i/images/internet-dating.pn...

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by kbenson on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:28PM (#15572710)
I figured it was probably sub 20%. 10% is still quite high, in my eyes.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by xapata on Saturday October 28, 2017 @12:42PM (#15575677)
There's some overlap, as one can be friends with coworkers and go to bars with them.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by rovolo on Monday October 30, 2017 @01:04PM (#15586752)
The paper aims to categorize how people met rather than how their relationship developed. This is how they describe their criteria for categorizing relationships (the paper is focused on internet dating, but the same criteria would be used for coworkers):

>By meeting online, or meeting through the Internet, we mean that a couple’s relationship began with an online interaction and then developed into a personal and physical relationship. We coded couples as having met online only if the online interaction was crucial to their having met, regardless of how the couple communicated once they had met. … If the couple first met decades earlier, fell out of touch, and then rediscovered each other through Facebook, that would be “meeting online” for our purposes.

Based on my reading of their criteria, the relationship would be categorized as 'coworker' if they either knew the person at work prior to visiting the bar, they were introduced at the bar through a coworker, or a work event took place at a bar.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:18PM (#15571370)
Fresno is really a great place. I was there for over two years. I don't know why it gets badmouthed so much. And, yes, compared to coastal big cities in California, it is dramatically cheaper.

They are starting a high speed rail line there. It is 500,000 people and much more spread out than the coastal big cities, so it is not nearly as dense. The bus system is the best I have ever seen in the US, so you can live without a car there, even though it sprawls. I have lived without a car for years and Fresno was a big improvement over previous experiences.

I considered doing a website* as an ode to the city/to promote a walkable lifestyle there. It didn't get off the ground and now I have moved out of state. But, if you want to stay in California and want to get away from some of the insanity in places like SF, I will second "just move to the Central Valley if you can arrange it."

http://pedestrianfresno.blogspot.com/

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by jacobolus on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:08PM (#15571788)
The weather is miserable for half the year, and there’s less to do. A bunch of my extended family lives in Fresno and elsewhere in the Central Valley, but I can’t imagine living there.

The politicians they elect throughout the Central Valley are also absolutely bonkers.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:11PM (#15571811)
So, serious question, explain to me why you think the weather is "miserable" and what is it you "do" all the time that you can't imagine living in Fresno?

I don't get it. There are national forests there. Woodward Park is huge. There is an international airport. What kinds of activities are you into that you can't get your needs met in a city of 500,000 people, about the 36th largest city in the US IIRC, which means there are entire states that don't have a city that big in them.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by jacobolus on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:17PM (#15571872)
I’m sure there’s all kinds of cool stuff in Fresno if you know where to look. It’s not the same as the Bay Area though.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:19PM (#15571884)
That is generically true of any two places. But, you stated there was lots less to do there. I am curious what you are into that this seems to be true to you. What are your interests?

I was a military wife. I have lived all over. I just find your statements genuinely baffling and I would like to understand where you are coming from.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by jacobolus on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:47PM (#15572103)
Meetups, museums, lectures by visiting scholars, stops on book tours, concerts/plays/other performances, cultural festivals, interesting architectural sites, professional sports, restaurants, a wide variety of interesting neighborhoods within walk distance, ....

There’s nothing wrong with Fresno. Plenty of lovely people live there, and I’m sure there are all sorts of things happening all the time. It just doesn’t (to me at least) seem comparable to the Bay Area. As one example, Fresno State is a fine school, but it can’t compete with Berkeley and Stanford.

The population density is also relatively low, and it doesn’t seem like a very easy place to live without frequently using a car. (I end up using a car about once a month.) I really appreciate being able to walk to 3 different grocery stores within a 3 block radius, walk to 10 coffee/tea shops, walk to 100 restaurants of every imaginable type, walk to the park, walk to 2 library branches, walk to several little art galleries, walk to bakeries and fish markets, walk to all sorts of little shops, walk to the subway, ...

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:51PM (#15572123)
It just doesn’t (to me at least) seem comparable to the Bay Area.

No, it isn't comparable. That is kind of the point here: If you are sick of the downside in the Bay Area of insane commutes, insane house prices, large numbers of increasingly aggressive homeless junkies, etc, then leaving might make more sense for some people than staying and hoping to fix some of these problems.

But thank you for giving me a meaty reply.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by jacobolus on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:59PM (#15572185)
My wife commutes to work 10 minutes by bike. I haven’t been accosted by any homeless junkies, and all of the homeless people I have talked to recently have been either friendly or politely distant (usually they seem pretty starved for human interaction, and are really excited to have a baby wave at them). I go walking around town in the middle of the night (sometimes with my 14-month-old walking beside me) and have never felt unsafe. There are a lot of car window smash-and-grab thefts in the neighborhood, which is kind of unfortunate. And sometimes people steal packages left on doorsteps. Bike thefts are also common. None of those have affected me personally.

Housing prices are definitely a problem, but we are lucky to own a condo, so the main effect on us is a gradually gentrifying neighborhood (which process we are part of), which will probably mean less interesting neighbors in another 10 or 20 years.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:04PM (#15572212)
I just got off the street recently. I am glad to see you say nice things about the homeless population there. I have not been in the Bay Area in some years. I am repeating some of the things I have read about it.

I am struggling to understand this discussion with you. Do you have some objection to the suggestion that people who are dissatisfied should consider the Central Valley as an alternative? It isn't like it is a gun to your head insisting people who are happy should leave.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by jacobolus on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:14PM (#15572280)
No, people who like the Central Valley should definitely feel free to go live there!

I’m just saying I wouldn’t choose to. My original phrasing (“can’t imagine”) was probably a bit hyperbolic.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:36PM (#15572420)
But no one is suggesting you do so. So, I am still baffled by this entire exchange.

Probably best to drop it though.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by xapata on Saturday October 28, 2017 @12:47PM (#15575703)
He replied in the same way one might at a party -- you say something, then he tries to relate to it. In this case, he was explaining why he can't relate.

Seemed like a natural exchange to me.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Saturday October 28, 2017 @02:22PM (#15576118)
Well, I don't get out much, so I don't have those party chit chat experiences. Maybe that's the problem.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by xapata on Saturday October 28, 2017 @06:48PM (#15577079)
Chit chat isn't just for parties. Meeting new people is often enjoyable, though more fun if they're agreeable instead of complaining.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by s0rce on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:34PM (#15572000)
So much closer to the mountains! Real mountains, not hills.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by fizx on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:16PM (#15571860)
110 degrees in August.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by s0rce on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:33PM (#15571996)
but you have AC!
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:55PM (#15572156)
And it's a dry heat.

I grew up in Georgia. I'll take 110 in a dry place with low humidity over 101 in air thick enough to slice with a knife any day.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Mz on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:32PM (#15571980)
That's it?
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by velobro on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:19PM (#15571882)
That's because the Central Valley is basically as conservative as any Southern state.

It's the main reason why I left there to move to the bay. I just couldn't handle their politics anymore.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by diogenescynic on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:25PM (#15570951)
You left out some other frequent experiences: having your car broken into, bums pooping on your fire escape, used needles all over, BART general unsanitary and unsafe conditions, bad service and crowded restaurants, I could go on and on.

San Francisco is the most expensive and over-priced shithole. I’ve lived here for 10 years and I’m completely over it. I can’t wait for some startup or tech company to use this as a disruptive opportunity. I only live here because my job is here. I’d move if my job would let me.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by swendoog on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:37PM (#15571040)
I think this goes without saying but... if you're a software developer, there's never been a better time to find a new job, at a different company.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by chrisseaton on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:15PM (#15572291)
> lived 3 miles from work

Huh? So why weren't you just walking in the first place? That's like a 45 minute brisk walk. That doesn't sound like any kind of hardship.

Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by carb on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:18PM (#15572306)
A 45 minute brisk walk to and from work every day is excessive. By no means is 7.5 hrs of walking every week a commute I would call "just walking".
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by Buttes on Saturday October 28, 2017 @10:57AM (#15575318)
That's a very ordinary amount of walking for many people.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by cmontella on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:48PM (#15572492)
It's a 570 ft elevation difference between where I lived and work. Yeah, maybe I need to work out more, but that was just too much for me 5 days a week. Also I didn't like walking through mid market.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by guiomie on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:22PM (#15570394)
I live in Lower Haight, and takes me 10-20 minutes. But I agree with you SF or just city life can take a toll.
Re:Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing” by acchow on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:03PM (#15572948)
> I used to live in the dead center of the city, in the Ashbury Heights neighborhood. It took me literally 1 hour to get to work, down town taking muni

Was a great deal of that time spent walking? Because taking the N from Cole Valley to downtown normally takes 15 minutes.