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Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by GordonS on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:40PM (#15522427)
If butter is the only thing you removed from your diet, you must have been eating an incredible amount of it?!
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by Pxtl on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:27PM (#15523182)
Imagine somebody whose favourite snack is a nice slice of baguette with butter slathered on it.

By cutting butter, he's also effectively cut an unnecessary carb-heavy between-meal snack, since he doesn't want the baguette without the butter.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by atom-morgan on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:42PM (#15523266)
It sounds like they learned to enjoy the plain bagel.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by y4mi on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:51PM (#15522476)
No, butter makes the other stuff more delicious, making you eat just a little more each time.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by analog31 on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:43PM (#15522970)
I think this is important, and that the food industry has been progressively making food more and more yummy over the past few decades. So far I really don't have a good answer for how to reduce consumption without reducing pleasure, at least in the short term. Developing a taste for food that isn't designed to be addictive, probably requires a long term change of habits.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by trevyn on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:35PM (#15523732)
>So far I really don't have a good answer for how to reduce consumption without reducing pleasure

Salt.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by Fnoord on Saturday October 21, 2017 @08:01PM (#15524313)
Good one, with that comes increased water intake due to increased thirst, therefore quicker satiation due to being full quicker.

Restaurants like salt because customers won't order water (even though tap water is free here in NL it makes one look as too much of a cheapskate); they'll order a drink like wine which they can upsell and already has large profit margins.

Nephrologists won't be happy though (although it does generate them more customers, they probably got more than enough as it is).

My suggestion would be: less salt + umami + herbs.

Herbs is a bit vague, it really depends on the dish (and there's more than herbs; look at things like garlic, ginger, and turmeric you can buy these dried as well, in same tins or glasses as herbs are).

Personally, I'm a fan of the Italian spices as well as mixes like baharat and ras el hanout even though I don't have a background in any related culture (I'm Dutch).

You can achieve umami in various ways: yeast extract, Vetsin, E621, MSG, etc. In the end its all the same, but I put the one consumers fear the least first in the list wink

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by spion on Sunday October 22, 2017 @05:32PM (#15529064)
The reason why our satiety mechanisms don't work is because carbs upregulate insulin, which supresses leptin [1]. Leptin and ghrelin are the two main hunger hormones; leptin tells our brain we're full. The signal doesn't work too well in the presence of high insulin, and gets worse with insulin resistance, causing people to have a "second stomach" for sweet foods.

https://olumialife.com/knowledge/how-does-insulin-affect-lep...

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by tslug on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:30PM (#15523472)
I find a great substitute is olive oil where I'd use butter for non-cooking (eg. instead of butter on pasta or instead of butter on bread). It's not quite as tasty but still a huge improvement over dry, and it's healthier.

For cooking, I understand olive oil is unhealthy (I think you create carcinogens as a side-effect), as are many other oils, but that coconut oil doesn't do this because of its different melting temperature.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by projektir on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:57PM (#15524722)
> For cooking, I understand olive oil is unhealthy (I think you create carcinogens as a side-effect), as are many other oils, but that coconut oil doesn't do this because of its different melting temperature.

I believe the situation with oil is a bit more complicated than that, and you're generally fine with olive oil unless you make it smoke, which is fairly non-trivial to do, despite its low smoking point. There seems to be some debate on the topic: http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/03/cooking-with-olive-oil-fa...

Coconut oil in particular actually has a low smoking point. If you want to be safe, you want Avocado oil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by huehehue on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:18AM (#15525425)
I encourage you to try some top-shelf olive oil, if you haven't already -- I find that it blows butter out of the water in most cases.

I initially felt the same way as you wrt tastiness, but had a friend bring me back a tin of oil from Italy recently and whoooo boy it's just the most phenomenal thing. Add a bit of salt & pepper to a shallow bowl of oil for dipping bread.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by Fnoord on Monday October 23, 2017 @06:30PM (#15537463)
Coconut oil is a (mostly) saturated fat; olive oil and sunflower seed oil are (mostly) unsaturated fat.

Olive oil with herbs is amazing. Give it a whirl.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by osrec on Saturday October 21, 2017 @07:50PM (#15524264)
Ah, but coconut oil has other potential issues. I would not put it in the healthy category, despite its current popularity.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by ValentineC on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:17PM (#15522828)
I don't know why @gras's comment in this thread is marked as dead, but I agree with them.

Reposting the question from the comment:

> Doesn't fat make food more satisfying, making you feel fulfilled sooner?

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by kbenson on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:10PM (#15523114)
You can click the comment permalink (the age indicator) and on that page you have the option to vouch for the person /comment if it seems appropriate. I did so and they appear to be visible again. I've seen it take two vouch operations before though.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by ValentineC on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:03PM (#15523358)
Ah, the vouch option seems to only be available on the comment permalink, and not on the general comments page. TIL, thanks!
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by gras on Saturday October 21, 2017 @01:17PM (#15522579)
Doesn't fat make food more satisfying, making you feel fulfilled sooner?

Needs a citation I guess.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by bitexploder on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:40PM (#15523259)
https://www.ncbi.nqlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10435117

For most people high fiber foods are better.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by WillPostForFood on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:54PM (#15523571)
It is a study of 14 people that self reported how hungry they were and how much they ate on their own. I don't think we can get to advice stating "most people" should do anything from that. It is an example of how bad science gets translated to bad advice and bad behavior. Not picking on you, you are responding rationally to a headline or blurb about the study. But it is a worthless study.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by bitexploder on Sunday October 22, 2017 @12:38PM (#15527598)
There are more studies. That was an example. Go look around for the others. Most importantly try it for yourself. It is pretty easy to figure out.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by analog31 on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:39PM (#15522940)
As I mentioned above, removing butter also resulted in the elimination of other things from my diet.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by nextos on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:53PM (#15523566)
Perhaps you removed bread?
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by analog31 on Saturday October 21, 2017 @07:41PM (#15524233)
Yes, that was probably a lot of it. I have no doubt that my caloric intake decreased more than just from butter, and next on the list would most likely be carbs. I started eating more of some other things such as lean meats and beans.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by nextos on Saturday October 21, 2017 @08:47PM (#15524485)
I tend to think good quality butter, especially grassfed & unpasteurised, is very healthy in moderate amounts (great vitamin K2 source).
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by Spare_account on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:42PM (#15523767)
I was just eating a lot less food overall because it was less pleasant. So it probably was a reduction in carbs.

It literally says in the text that he ate less overall.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by gtrubetskoy on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:50PM (#15522471)
There is _no_ amount of butter (or fat, in general) that you can eat that will make you gain weight, provided there is no sugar in your diet. You will physically not be able to eat more than your body can deal with, this is because fat, unlike sugar, triggers the i-am-full hormones which make food impossible to eat.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by y4mi on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:56PM (#15522502)
No, that is plain wrong. Calories count, no matter where they are from.

Ketogenic diets might increase your metabolism and reduce your appetite and hunger, which makes weight loss easier, but you'll still gain weight if you eat too many fat calories each day. Even if you cut out carbs entirely.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by renaudg on Saturday October 21, 2017 @01:47PM (#15522696)
"Calories count, no matter where they are from."

This is the exact point the article is proving wrong.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by aaron-lebo on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:35PM (#15522911)
It doesn't really prove it wrong. If you eat 3000 calories of butter every day, you're gonna get fat. In that sense, a calorie is a calorie.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by coldtea on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:48PM (#15523548)
>In that sense, a calorie is a calorie.

This has been thoroughly disproven for ages -- starting with the naive assumption that you can just eat X amounts of anything and it doesn't affect anything else in your health/apetite/metabolism.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by aaron-lebo on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:57PM (#15523587)
I know we like to one up each other on HN, but you're just talking past the main point.

Calories matter. If you eat too many, you get fat. Some calories might be "better" than others, but they are a standard of unit of energy for a reason. A calorie is a calorie.

Would you like to try the butter diet? I can guarantee you you'll get fat.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by coldtea on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:53PM (#15523815)
>Calories matter. If you eat too many, you get fat. Some calories might be "better" than others, but they are a standard of unit of energy for a reason. A calorie is a calorie.

That's quite irrelevant though (besides tautological), as we don't just eat calories, we eat food that has calories and tons of other stuff in different arrangements.

A calorie being a calorie doesn't cover whether the food you got the calorie from makes you satiated, or conversely makes you eat more, or makes you feel more energetic, or makes you store it as fat, or brings hormonal changes, etc.

A "milligram is a milligram" too, a standard unit of weight, but 1mg of cyanide can kill a person, and 1mg of water won't do anything to them.

>Would you like to try the butter diet? I can guarantee you you'll get fat.

Again this presumes that people can just eat, regardless of what they eat -- and continue to eat it without that affecting anything else. I guarantee you if I ate just butter, I'd threw up after several hundred grams, and feel quite bad and stop the diet after some days.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by aaron-lebo on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:54PM (#15523821)
We're not disagreeing, just talking about different things.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by didgeoridoo on Saturday October 21, 2017 @08:09PM (#15524346)
Surprisingly, you wouldn’t. I basically have been on your “butter diet” for over a year. I get about 80% of my calories from fat, much of it saturated. The rest is protein. I’ve lost about 50 pounds, normalized my blood pressure & cholesterol, and feel amazing.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by aaron-lebo on Saturday October 21, 2017 @08:26PM (#15524415)
How many calories were you eating pre and post diet?

2 sticks of butter is almost 1800 calories, that would be a weird diet with lots of hunger. There probably are a lot of sources of fat that work better than that.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by gtrubetskoy on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:52PM (#15524706)
To illustrate the point: dietary fiber, which contains a lot of calories, is not digestible. Eat as much as you can, but you will not get one calorie of energy from it. So just based on that, where calories come from matters.

There is a difference between fat metabolism and sugar metabolism. They use different metabolic pathways, in other words the process by which a fatty acid molecule becomes ATP (the ultimate source of cellular energy) is very different from how fructose (which has to first be converted to glucose in the liver) becomes ATP.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by barkingtoad on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:20PM (#15523162)
"a calorie is a calorie"

This is the exact point the article is... arguing against in a very convincing fashion

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by y4mi on Saturday October 21, 2017 @03:30PM (#15523206)
No, the article is saying that people are getting obese and diabetic because of sugar.

Its further pointing out that there are calories ("sugars") which make it much easier to gain weight. I didn't disagree there either.

The article never claims that you can eat any amount of calories as long as you leave carbs from the table. And thats the only thing i pointed out. Because thats just plain wrong. If you eat too many calories, you will gain weight. And if you're predisposed to obesity, you will eat more calories when you're flavouring stuff with sugar. This will, as the author pointed out, cause you to get even more obese and eventually get diabetes.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by WillPostForFood on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:56PM (#15523582)
You are getting lost in semantics, because if you are saying:

there are calories ("sugars") which make it much easier to gain weight.

Then a calorie isn't a calorie.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by cheald on Saturday October 21, 2017 @07:30PM (#15524190)
Calories are calories (it's literally a measure of energy!) The packages they come in will effect hormonal and psychological responses differently which may affect the amount you would take in if intake is left unmonitored. To that extent, it's wise to take in foods which don't nudge you towards over consuming, but if you can be disciplined and take in a quantity of energy less than you expend on a consistent basis, eating that intake as sugar rather than other macros isn't going to magically make you gain weight.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by WillPostForFood on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:16PM (#15524570)
You are making the same semantic argument I was criticizing. In the context of this discussion we aren't talking about the literal measure of energy, but the package. I.e., is a quantity of sugar that has a calorie of energy the same to the body as a quantity of fat or fiber that contains a calorie of energy. That's what someone is claiming when they say a calorie is a calorie. And to that question, the evidence bears out that it the effects are not just psychological, and don't just affect desire to eat. If you took two twins, and fed one 2000 calories of cane sugar a day, and fed the other 2000 calories of raw broccoli, after a month, they wouldn't have the same weight.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by mohaine on Saturday October 21, 2017 @10:14PM (#15524779)
Sure, it is a measure of energy, but it is not a measure of of how much energy we as humans will utilize from the food. Some calories are much more efferent for us to extract than others. Some can't be extracted at all.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by uoaei on Sunday October 29, 2017 @03:40AM (#15578379)
Are you aware of how calories are measured? They essentially set the food on fire and count how long it takes to go out.

Does our body digest things by acting like a furnace? No. There are different ways to extract energy from food and our body does things that aren't accounted for by the nutrtional facts blurb on the box. In some cases the food will just go straight through you, such as when you eat loads of fat. All those "calories" don't necessarily translate into x pounds on your body in new fat.

Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by analog31 on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:47PM (#15522992)
This is exactly what puzzles me. Increasing your metabolism should increase your body temperature, all other things being equal. I still suspect that sheer reduction of calories is the main driver of weight loss, and if anything, fine-tuning one's metabolism plays a minor role.
Re:Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obes... by y4mi on Saturday October 21, 2017 @02:58PM (#15523047)
I'm just talking anecdotally here but yes, the body temperature does increase significantly. Keto wasn't for me, especially because of the increased food budget, but it sure did help with my chronically cold feet/hands.

But I'd still agree with your second assessment: the biggest contributor is the decreased hunger/appetite after the first few weeks.